Dominion Family

Sun 11 Nov 2007

133 Comments

1. I wonder at people like you, Cindy, who can think of all this stuff. I think, “uh, huh” (that’s a “yes” to those who have trouble translating sounds like I do.), but it never just comes to mind on demand. I also didn’t like it when people assume my kids were just naturally well behaved. However, I would have looked at my watch with the crying event because I would be trying to figure out what was wrong with the crying baby. I’m not sure what your thinking on this is, but as a mother of six children, the most stressful times for me were the baby times. Five of my six were colicky babies who cried a lot. I carried them around a lot in a sling and in the backpack, etc., but I found by experience that crying definitely did not necessarily mean they were hungry and more problems were created when trying to feed them to much. My kids almost never just dropped off when they were tired; they fought sleep to the bitter end. So we had crying for lots of other things than needing food and checking the watch helped me to narrow the options.

   Comment by Patti (November 11, 2007 @ 4:33 pm )

2. Would you mind explaining #1? This is my method: Go in the stall, hold the kid so he’s not touching anything, he does his business, I wipe the best I can, flush with my foot, out and wash hands, right? What’s all this about looking?

   Comment by sara (November 11, 2007 @ 4:42 pm )

3. Patti,
   I knew that the watch thing was going to be the most controversial and also catch the most fish. Sure, all mothers, and especially mothers with a little commonsense check their watches to make sure the baby actually IS hungry. But the exaggeration I was after is the mother who can’t really interpret her baby without the watch.

   Comment by Cindy (November 11, 2007 @ 4:51 pm )

4. Sorry, Sara,
   I am not talking about being neurotic about making sure your child doesn’t touch ANYTHING in the public restroom. I am in complete agreement with carrying children around and not touching things in the restroom. I wish someone would carry me around in there. But I mean children who whine and pout for mommy to look at the evidence before it is flushed. I have seen children absolutely tyrannize their mothers in public places to go through that little ritual.

   Comment by Cindy (November 11, 2007 @ 5:05 pm )

5. oh. my. I’m glad I have never witnessed that.

   Comment by sara (November 11, 2007 @ 5:09 pm )

6. I have to give you a high-five on #10. I’m so old that I no longer feel a little taken aback when I am approached like the Sage of the Ages. I, too, like to be asked, and try to keep quiet unless I am. And I was in a church without the benefit of lots of Titus 2 older women who wanted to be asked. I would have loved having feedback, and asked everyone I could. So I love being that for younger moms!

   Oh, and #8. I love my kids, but find myself talking mostly about how awful they were, since young moms seem to feel the older kids who they hope their children will emulate must have started off more holy or perfect somehow.

   I also hate it when young moms who think the busy-ness of babyhood is the worst and most trying thing in the world act like once your children are older, it’s a piece of cake. Perhaps these are largely the same ones who seem to continue feeling that whatever stage they are in is the worst. If you think keeping track of a toddler is a trial (and it is!) try watching as God deals with sin in the life of your teenager. There are harder things than a busy, tiring schedule!

   I hate it when young moms try to reason with a 2 year old who really needs to be trained in obedience. There is, of course, a time to offer logical reasoning with your children. But there is also a time to use the old standard, “Do it because I told you to” line.

   I hate it when young moms allow their children to be loud and disruptive without any consequences for the misbehavior, and act as if screaming and throwing a tantrum is “normal” for children. Children will do what they are allowed to do. I vote for less tolerance…

   Those ar ejust a few off the top of my head…

   

   Comment by Chris in NM (November 11, 2007 @ 5:13 pm )

7. Chris,
   I have been contemplating totally discouraging the young moms by saying something like,” It does get easier and then it gets harder again.”

   Comment by Cindy (November 11, 2007 @ 5:20 pm )

8. LOL Cindy! I don’t mean to discourage young moms, of course… only to say they might try to be grateful for the pleasures of each stage of parenting, instead of thinking that the “magic phase” of having well behaved, sin-free older children is somehow around the bend. Don’t we all think that where we are is the hardest, instead of realizing the blessings to be had along the way?

   I also hate it when young moms allow their children to speak/act disrespectfully to them. I was recently treated to this in a grocery store line, when a child called his mom names, told her she didn’t love him, and wanted all the candy for herself. The poor thing was so embarrassed, she bought the child the candy just to get him to be quiet. It was a shame!

   Comment by Chris in NM (November 11, 2007 @ 5:30 pm )

9. I think I was worst as an older mom, since I was so busy. Things that the oldest three never got away with, the fourth and fifth did somewhat, and the sixth and seventh really flew under the radar. With so much busyness in the family, I neglected to train them to obey, and now I am really dealing with the consequences with my six year old. Thank God, I have the chance to deal with it now, rather than when she is fifteen. I am also thankful that it is a reminder for me to take the time to train the baby as much as is possible now!

   I really do hate to see moms worrying about germs and weather. Although I make my children take sweaters when we go places, I don’t make them wear them.

   I hate to see mothers bribing their children to be quiet in a store by buying them a toy, or even worse a video! I hate to see mothers go to the library and check out 10 videos and only one or two stupid books!

   I hate to see mothers who worry so much about a child’s physical safety but little concern for their minds and souls.

   I had better be quiet now….

   Comment by Eva in AZ (November 11, 2007 @ 5:30 pm )

10. Eva,
    It breaks my heart to see small children at the video store helping their parents pick out movies. I have seen small children discussing horror movies with their parents.

    Comment by Cindy (November 11, 2007 @ 5:37 pm )

11. My oldest is 14 so I feel somewhat qualified to chime in. I hate to see young moms overly anxious because their babies or kids are not happy in the church nursery or Sunday School. They’ll get over it if you stop checking on them!!

    And, amen on not cutting crusts off. I don’t insist the kids eat them but I’m not a short-order cook either. Same for picking out mushrooms and onions. Just leave them on the plate, I’m not going to make you special food!

    Comment by jennifer (November 11, 2007 @ 5:39 pm )

12. Okay, I had to leave a comment just so that I could receive all the follow up comments!! These are great. I hate when moms tell me how they they could never homeschool, because they just don’t have the patience and their kids are so difficult. Not me, boy, I have the patience of a saint and my kids were born holy!! Sure!!

    Comment by Karen Dunham (November 11, 2007 @ 5:49 pm )

13. Cindy,

    First, thank you for this little series — I hope you are just getting warmed up. Lay it on us (I’m a younger mother of five, ages 7 to 3).

    Now…ahem… I will say, in regards to #10, that my #1 reason for not continuing in steady efforts to ask older women their advice in regards parenting advice is the historically constant answer: “Oh, I don’t know. I don’t really remember what we used to do! You’re doing fine and this time will pass quickly anyway.” Ahhrrg. Yes, please do continue to plumb the depths of memory loss here, and then perhaps in real life you can start a movement of wearing some kind of badge that indicates you are willing to answer real questions with real answers.

    Comment by Heather (November 11, 2007 @ 5:52 pm )

14. I love being around young moms and I’m with some of you in wishing sometimes they would ask questions. But then occasionally when a topic comes up, I’ve had it happen that I’ve suggested a, b, & c and the mother insists that there is no chance any of those options will work. And even d, e, & f are not possible for her. After a conversion or two with one particular person, I’ve given up making any suggestions. It’s just too discouraging to have the mother not accept any ideas from anyone.

    Just for the record, none of my children have wanted me to look at the “product” and I have little desire to do so. One wonders where these children you’ve observed have learned it from?

    Juanita

    Comment by Juanita (November 11, 2007 @ 5:52 pm )

15. I’m supposed to know a few things? I’m still learning! You’d think I’d be an expert now! The one thing I can say is that you never stop making mistakes, so quit seeking Mothering Utopia.

    Comment by Kim (November 11, 2007 @ 6:04 pm )

16. I’m glad Amy linked to you. I’m learning so much!

    Comment by sara (November 11, 2007 @ 6:14 pm )

17. “conversation” not “conversion”

    yikes. Definitely no conversions happening in those conversations.

    Comment by Juanita (November 11, 2007 @ 6:21 pm )

18. Oh, goodness, Eva, those are good, too. What Karen says about people saying they could never homeschool is one that irks me, too…as if I’m the epitome of patience????!!!

    Comment by Patti (November 11, 2007 @ 6:35 pm )

19. Cindy,
    One thing that has been an irritation to me is seeing mothers dragging their young children everywhere. Some little ones are fussy because they just want to be at home! I am one that wants to be home and I have children that feel the same way. There are times when moms have to take their children out, but it’s not a good thing to continually keep everyone on the go.

    Comment by Lynn (November 11, 2007 @ 7:03 pm )

20. I hate all the things you hate, Cindy!

    I think I like you so much because you believe these things and are rearing boys…..that means there’s hope for true leadership in America.

    I wonder how many grands you will have. My folks have 29 and they had only six children.

    So, do your math.

    Blessings fm GA,
    Dana

    Comment by Dana (November 11, 2007 @ 7:35 pm )

21. I have 8 children in two groups. The olders are ages 23-15 and the younger 9-2 months. I hear both sides depending on which child is where. My biggest complaint with the younger group is when a mother of 1 or 2 still young child/ren becomes the all knowing expert for other young mothers. It is extremely annoying to hear that the *best* or *only* way to raise a child is xyz. Somehow the conversation always ends up centered on their child.

    I try to let young mothers know that I am only an expert on my children, but here is how/what I did and perhaps it would work for their child. If you train for obedience then the rest is much much easier. Of course the *expert* can never agree with the idea of obedience. And I have to admit that being busy with the olders has let the youngers slide in some areas. It is much easier to tackle younger. I am glad I woke up to the slippage, but wish it hadn’t happened at all. So my other advice is that times change but standards shouldn’t, keep up with those younger ones. (Bedtimes might need adjusting on some nights, but good behavior is good behavior.)

    Comment by Stephanie in AR (November 11, 2007 @ 8:00 pm )

22. Cindy, I agree with your list. I’m a young mother, but I promise, you don’t have to listen to me. I’ll probably still stalk you anyway. I value my friends with older kids more than just about anything!! Especially because I started having kids early (my oldest was born when I was 19), and none of my friends my age even have kids yet …

    Moms who say ‘no’ as a knee-jerk drive me nuts. So your kid might get dirty. So they might scrape a knee, hand, or elbow. Heaven forbid!! Let them grow and have fun and figure some stuff out. My kids figured out (very quickly) just how far they can swing the hammock before they fall on their heads because they would swing too far and fall on their heads. And they’re just fine for it.

    And Karen, I’ve heard the homeschool comment before. My all-time favorite (the one that made me cry when I hung up the phone) was ‘I just don’t think I would want to be around my kids that much for that many years.’ Uh, huh. Interesting.

    My kids are very far from perfect, but come on! Commonsense, people!

    ~Brea, a younger mom with good, older friends who regularly kick her in the hiney

    Comment by Brea in Texas (November 11, 2007 @ 8:02 pm )

23. Cindy,

    Absolute dittos on #’s 8, 9 and 10. My oldest is nearing sixteen, so I don’t claim to be an expert but I definitely am not a young mom anymore. One of my biggest pet peaves is to see a young mother say, “I’m going to count to three…1, 2, 3, blah, blah blah,” and then do absolutely nothing. Make them obey when you first make the request…don’t encourage them to sin by letting them disobey you for a set amount of time.

    Remembering back to when I was a young mom who did ask lots of questions of the two older moms who I really respected, I would encourage older moms to SAY SOMETHING to those younger moms when you see them doing things well. I remember spending an entire day crying off and on (for joy) because one of these moms told me what a good job she thought we were doing with our children. It meant the world to me. And being a pastor’s wife, people always felt freer to criticize us to our face rather than encourage us. (Most of it had to do with convictions about what we were doing rather than behavior, like the fact that we homeschooled and didn’t choose to send our children to camp the summer after kindergarten. Really.) So say something kind to your pastor and his wife about their children if they are doing a good job. You wouldn’t believe how many people (at least in our case) think your family should be perfect and feel totally free to tell you if you’re not meeting their expectations.

    Comment by Lisa W. (November 11, 2007 @ 8:21 pm )

24. Please comment all of you experienced moms! This is a very helpful series!

    Comment by Mrs D (November 11, 2007 @ 8:42 pm )

25. Cindy,
    I am stepping forward as I believe myself to be your church stalker. Thank you for being so available. It is especially helpful to find experienced mothers who have homeschooled. I have a friend who reminds me we are running a marathon. I think those of you who have older dc can help us with youngers to have that type perspective. When you are in the trenches with the littles and all the manual labor it requires it can be hard to see past it. I do appreciate the posts about appreciating the stage you are in while in it.
    Stalk,er, see you next week!8)
    Wendy

    

    Comment by wendy (November 11, 2007 @ 9:23 pm )

26. I don’t like it when parents say oh my child never needs to be disciplined b/c they are so good. It’s not that they are so good, they might not ever fuss or cry or throw a fit BECAUSE momma/daddy never cross the child, never make the child do something they don’t want to do and basically let the kid call the shots.

    or

    When parents never allow kids to “cry it out”. I’m not talking for hours - but running immediately to the child at the first signs of tears when the child sees a stranger (not bad strangers but relatives). Grandma is holding baby/toddler, child cries, mommy/daddy run and take back baby.

    or

    When momma cannot handle a household and ONE child b/c they feel like they cannot leave the child for one second alone while they cook a meal or do laundry or whatever. It’s ok to not constantly be your child’s playmate and source of entertainment. Bring the child into the kitchen, put her in the highchair and give some non-sharp kitchen things to play with by your side as you cook dinner. Bring her downstairs and plop her in a playpen while you work on the laundry.

    or

    Toddlers/kids in diapers way beyond the time it is necessary (I know there are certain problems with some children - but for the most part by the time toddler is a certain age, they should be able to be potty trained or working on it).

    or

    Parents that are so fearful that their children are going to be tainted by the world, that pretty much the only kids their kids can play with or hang out with are their siblings. I believe we need to be watchful of our children’s associates, but when they won’t even allow their kids to talk with your kids AT CHURCH, that’s a bit much.

    Comment by Lorri (November 11, 2007 @ 9:37 pm )

27. I’m a little late to add my two cents, but I am irritated by moms who follow their little guys everywhere, saying, “Do you need help, honey? Watch out, honey! You might get hurt, sweetie. Shall mommy help you do that? Oh my, be careful!” Give the kid some space to breathe! And, yes, sometimes they get dirty AND hurt! Or if the child is out of sight for a moment, Mom goes wild with anxiety. They kind of act like the “dad” fish in “Finding Nemo”! But as Dory (from the movie) said, “Well, that’s funny. If you never let anything happen to them, then NOTHING will ever happen!” (Yes, I know. I don’t usually take advice from a fish to heart, but…)

    It’s also a bit sad, actually, when parents of young children say their children will NEVER do this or that when they get older. It is good to have high standards and lofty ideals, but, face it, everything will not go according to your plans. It’s sad because I said a lot of those things myself, but you have to let loose on the reins sometime. Raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord, pray for them daily, but you must leave the results in God’s hands. And NEVER say NEVER.

    Comment by Linda (November 11, 2007 @ 9:44 pm )

28. Oh, and what do y’all think about young moms (or old moms) who attempt to train the babies to go potty at three months of age? I apologize to anyone out there who has been successful, but, come on!

    Comment by Linda (November 11, 2007 @ 9:47 pm )

29. It is always a pleasure to talk to you, Wendy the Stalker!

    Comment by Cindy (November 11, 2007 @ 9:54 pm )

30. Wow, Cindy. It seems everyone loves this topic! About weather, would you ever tell your children that they need to wear a coat or shoes? I do not think that I am protective about weather or dirt. But, I do sometimes tell my children that they have to wear a jacket and/or shoes. My dad is one who thinks children need socks on their feet when it’s cold. Maybe I get it from him. Is it bad for them to run around outside with bare feet when the ground is cold? I’m asking… (see # 10 :D)

    I would definitely be a stalker. I don’t think I will ever feel qualified to be a Titus 2 lady. My sister, who is 11 younger, asks me questions. I am honored; but, I still have so many questions myself!

    Thanks, as always, for being a Titus 2 woman. You’re a blessing!

    Comment by Laura (November 11, 2007 @ 10:18 pm )

31. I hate when people tip-toe around newborns so they will sleep. Have your baby sleep arounf lots of background noise. It makes good slepers!

    Comment by Briana (November 11, 2007 @ 11:27 pm )

32. Great article and comments!

    I would have to add to the list:

    A mother whose child is whining and fussing and mom says clearly, “I will not buy you a treat if you keep crying (or whining, or touching things, etc). After the child continues the behavior and mom threatens a second or third time, she goes ahead and BUYS THE TREAT ANYWAY!

    Allowing children to eat candy from the bulk food bins before paying for it. That is STEALING and you are teaching your children to STEAL!

    This one really tears my heart out…it is time to go and a child is lagging behind in disobedience. Mother counts to three or does a dozen other threats to get the child to come and the child doesn’t come. Then, as a last resort, she says, “I’m just going to leave you hear, then.” Oh, I hate that! You know she won’t really do that, but to frighten a child like that is awful. BTW, little children are small for a reason…pick them up and carry them home!

    My last one is Mom’s who let their older children ride in strollers instead of walk around the store. We aren’t talking about an all day trip where you are walking miles and miles, we are talking about a short trip to the store!

    Well, those are my hot buttons. Thanks for the chance to share.

    Comment by Donna (November 11, 2007 @ 11:39 pm )

33. I really hate to see older moms complain about younger moms. This article was very discouraging to me. I really hope that the older moms that I have gleaned from in the past were not looking at me this way. Us younger moms are trying our best. We need women who will be Godly examples and encouragers to us without judging us. I know that I am not as experienced in motherhood but don’t we all learn by trial and error? Maybe you could talk about what you would have done differently now that you have more wisdom.

    Comment by a young mom (November 11, 2007 @ 11:41 pm )

34. 1. I hate it when parents are ready to leave the store or whereever, and the young child isn’t ready yet, and the parent says, “Bye kid! I’m leaving,” in an effort to get the child to follow. This terrifies the child — he absolutely needs to know that you will never forsake him or leave him. In all honesty I’ve only seen this when shopping, never at church. But the principle is one to remember — never make empty threats, especially things that would actually be sin if you carried them out.

    2. I hate it when parents discuss things in front of their very young children (usually a pre-talker) that they shouldn’t be talking about in front of them. Children understand the language long before they’re able to speak. My earliest memory is of the mom of a playmate of mine saying that I was a baby and was too young to know what I was doing. I am still mad at her for saying that because I was NOT a baby, and I knew EXACTLY what I was doing. Oh yes, I should tell you that I was eight months old at the time.

    3. This is similar to Linda’s first one — moms at the playground who follow their children around and do everything for them including climbing up the equipment with them and taking them down the slide. Look, if your child is too small to do these things for himself, maybe he’s too small to be doing them. Leave them alone when they’re playing and let them learn how to do things for themselves, including testing their physical limitations. If you get them used to doing things that are beyond their own abilities then you won’t be able to let them play alone because they’ll think they’re capable of doing things that they really aren’t, which is dangerous. This, of course, is not meant to exclude pushing an infant in a swing.

    Comment by Kelly (November 12, 2007 @ 5:23 am )

35. With fear and trepidation, because I’m sure I did some of the things on your list:

    People who think their two-to-four-year-old is not part of the rest of humanity, because the parents either think he’s amazingly gifted, or they think that they are so morally enlightened that their child does not need to be disciplined. It’s amazing how many of those children become average by age seven, or when child number two comes along. It bothers me for the sake of the child, because no child can live up to that kind of pressure.

    That said, I’m sure there were times when I didn’t discipline properly, and about the only question people ask me is what curriculum I used. (I can answer that, but I don’t think it’s important.) I think that having only one child disqualifies me as a real parent/homeschooler in many people’s eyes.

    The older you get, the more having children is about living before God and before the older child or teenager, and the less it’s about homeschooling or parenting as a technique.

    Comment by Laura A (November 12, 2007 @ 7:00 am )

36. Ever the attention grabber……..

    http://hiddenart.blogspot.com/2007/11/parenting-pet-peeves-cindy-in-her-jolly.html

    Comment by Dana (November 12, 2007 @ 7:15 am )

37. Sorry, have to explain something: By morally enlightened, I’m talking mostly about people who think that Christians are stupid and that they’ve figured out a much better way of parenting that involves correcting *other* kids and adults, not themselves or their kids. But I’ve occasionally run into Christian parents who use similar techniques.

    Comment by Laura A (November 12, 2007 @ 7:25 am )

38. Linda (#28), we did that with our youngest. And it worked!! But we never made a big deal out of it like some moms that I know.

    Parents reasoning with their two-year-olds … Oy!! Come on, now!!

    Comment by Brea in Texas (November 12, 2007 @ 8:27 am )

39. I’m not sure I qualify as an “older mom”, but I feel older and I sure have a LOT of gray hair. Does that count? Anyway - I HATE it when I hear young moms end their instructions to their kids with “OK?” Ex.: “I want you to sit down in the seat, OK?” Are you really looking for them to only obet if they agree with you?

    Having been someone who did this a lot without realizing it, I think what mothers mean is “do you understand me”. But it comes across to the kids as if they actually have a say in whether they obey or not. (and in all honestly, we moms who say “OK?” often start to think that way) Much better to just make the statement…or if you need to ensure they’ve heard you train them to respond with “Yes, M’am” - or whatever you prefer.

    Comment by Kerry (November 12, 2007 @ 8:30 am )

40. ROFL! My mom cut the crusts off the bread for me, and I think I turned out okay!

    But neither of my kids have ever asked for it.

    Comment by Demeter (November 12, 2007 @ 9:05 am )

41. I’m now with #33. I enjoyed the first article, but this one has been a bit discouraging to me.

    In particular, the nursery issue. NOT ALL church nurseries are created equal. They’re really not. I have struggled with this my whole time as a mother because *I* had the child who would scream and cry the whole time she was in the nursery, and yes, she still does. I didn’t have a grandmother or any other caregiver to help my child get accustomed to caregivers other than me, nor did we have the money to pay for a baby-sitter. It is not always possible to get a baby/toddler to stay happily in certain situations- in particular, our nursery never had the same caregivers week to week.

    We chose our current church in large part because our baby will stay in the nursery and not cry the whole time. The workers are the same week to week, and I know I would be paged if she doesn’t calm down. But she does, so far. I am sorry, even if it makes me a bad or silly mother, I won’t leave my child with someone else to cry for an entire hour. Unhappy when I leave is fine, but not the whole time.

    It’s exactly that “just leave them and don’t worry about it, they’ll get over it” attitude that I find sooooo unhelpful. When someone recognizes I have a child who is upset to be left and I’m able to hand her directly to them and they immediately start engaging with her is much more encouraging than any lecture to me.

    Comment by Elizabeth (November 12, 2007 @ 9:17 am )

42. Hmmmm, to clarify, my youngest still starts out unhappy in many nursery situations, but in the nursery at church, she will calm down. But not at MOPS or other churches we’ve visited.

    Comment by Elizabeth (November 12, 2007 @ 9:18 am )

43. Elizabeth,
    I want to say that my second son would not go into a nursery and it was horrible. I ended up not even using the nursery for any more of my children. I figured it was easier to get them to sit through church than to let them scream in the nursery.

    I personally don’t think a baby should be left inconsolable in the nursery. I do think most babies are consolable and a little crying won’t hurt them but if a baby won’t stop crying it should be with its mother. That doesn’t make her a bad mother. Some babies are just more attached than others. It is a personality thing.

    But there is an issue that I think comes up where young children are ruling over their mothers or manipulating. This is more clearly seen with toddlers but as my husband would say the place to fix that problem is at home not a church.

    I am sorry this has discouraged you. It was meant to be light-hearted.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 9:27 am )

44. I think that the nursery issue is a sensitive one (for me) because it’s such a public thing. I have felt more “judged” and been more “advised” in this area than any other one. And I do think it is a personality thing too- my first would never stay, and strongly preferred me in all situations. (She is 4 yo now, and quite happily goes to nursery now, btw!) My second is more apt to stay in a nursery, and she also is more affectionate with others- she will SHOOO me away if Grandpa or someone else is holding her and she doesn’t want to come to me!

    Sorry to be a downer… it just hurt me when I read it, since I’ve struggled so much with this. And let me take a moment to thanks folks who do provide excellent nursery care. The older woman in charge of our church preschool ministry is truly a Titus 2 woman, I hope to get to know her better and I feel extremely comfortable with my children “in her charge” even if they are not in her direct care.

    Comment by Elizabeth (November 12, 2007 @ 9:44 am )

45. Great list, Cindy. I don’t cut the crusts off but I don’t always require the boys to finish the crusts (however, no crusts, no dessert and as the goal of every meal seems to be dessert for my lot, they usually finish the crusts in order to earn the graham cracker ;)).

    I had one son who was completely inconsolable in the nursery. He’d cry and cry and every week, they’d come get me. He and I spent a lot of time in cry rooms and church foyers when he wasn’t sitting on my lap. Finally, when he was approaching 3yo and I was 9 months pregnant with #3 son, he finally decided to stick it out in nursery and we had no more problems. #1 waved bye to me at 10 months and never looked back while #3 became terribly ill every time we left him so he was a “no nursery” baby for health reasons until he was 2yo or so. I parent on a case by case basis.

    BTW, have I told you lately how much I enjoy your blog. It always makes me think.

    Joy in VA, who is an in-between mom with sons 13yo, 11yo, and 8yo

    Comment by Joy in VA (November 12, 2007 @ 9:51 am )

46. As a young mom who also needs encouragement, I want to ask more about the nursery issue. In the spirit of “not everyone does everything/sees everything the same way”, aren’t there any older moms out there who DON’T (or didn’t) put their children in the nursery?

    My husband and I decided we didn’t want our son to be in the nursery. We’re first-time parents expecting our second. We’ve never had to put our son in there, and we like the idea of training him from birth to be a part of worship. My son happens to be easy-going, making it easier, but we’ve trained at home a lot to teach him to be content in this type of situation.

    I feel pretty alone at church on this topic. We’re the ONLY ones who do this. Everyone else put the baby in the nursery as soon as they make a squeak. My elder says that it’s great to keep him in the service, but I don’t feel “support”.

    Any older moms have a comment for this?

    Comment by Kelly P (November 12, 2007 @ 10:40 am )

47. Dear Kelley (#46),

    Don’t go by your “feelings”, stick to your conviction. At the same time, be willing to take little one out if noise is very disruptive. We had our kids in the nursery only from the time they wanted to be crawling (maybe 6 months) until about 18 months, when we could begin training them to stay with us with minimal distraction to others. It’s a GREAT thing to have your children in worship, and a worthy goal. Go for it!

    And I certainly didn’t mean to discourage any of you young moms… You all are doing the most important job in the world!

    Comment by Chris in NM (November 12, 2007 @ 10:51 am )

48. The truth is, as a young mom I’d never ask for your advice after reading this and I’m far from a know-it-all when it comes to parenting. I don’t follow “experts”; truly I’m looking for all the advice I can get. Didn’t you just write that you can’t really remember what it was like being a young mom? But here you are enumerating all the ways in which we’re screwing up. What in the world does it matter to you if a young mom cuts a crust off her son’s bread? Why do you care if she bundles up her 7 year old? It’s not like these moms are even asking you what you think they’re doing wrong, if I understand your 10th point correctly.

    It’s not internal insecurity or a poor education or even cranky public school teachers in church that has me wondering if I really have what it takes to homeschool my kids. I don’t even do a quarter of the stuff on your list yet it’s abundantly clear that I don’t measure up. So many homeschool blogs are like this; I know it’s all meant to be encouraging but all it does is sting.

    Comment by Another young mom (November 12, 2007 @ 10:52 am )

49. Kelly,
    I agree with Chris that by 18 months a child can be able to sit in church. I didn’t use the nursery from 6-18 months either but I must say it was a rough row to hoe. I never stayed if the baby was being disruptive. Not just making baby noises but being disruptive.
    It is very hard to go against the flow on this one. The key is being extra-specially courteous to others and just muddling through. Children really do benefit and learn to love church if they don’t have an alternative. None of my children have not wanted to go to church even though they have never been entertained there. I never even used crayons and books in the service. If the service is the thing the child out of sheer necessity will grow to enjoy it.

    Memory work also helps them participate in songs and hymns, creeds and the Lord’s Prayer.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 11:02 am )

50. Kelly P, haven’t we talked about this? My three oldest always went to nursery and to children’s church, in spite of crying etc, because I thought it was best for them. When our fourth (Nathan) was six or seven months old we moved and during the many long months while looking for a new church I decided to keep him with me (it was easier to do that than to explain his issues to a new set of nursery workers every Sunday).

    To make a long story short, by the time my fifth was a few months old we’d decided to quit using the nursery at all and my sixth and seventh babies have never been in nursery.

    As Cindy said, the place to train for this sort of thing is at home, not at church — remember what I told you about training him to sit at home?

    Comment by Kelly (November 12, 2007 @ 11:07 am )

51. Kelly P,

    I also want to encourage you to stick by your conviction. We put our first child in the nursery, but pulled him out shortly thereafter. I am expecting our tenth child and we have never put any of the others in the nursery. It has been a blessing for us to worship as a family. (as an added blessing they have learned how to sit quietly which is helpful as we wait for doctors appt. etc.). In our old church we were the only ones who did this and I received quite a lot of comments (negative). I did always take the baby out when he/she cried since it wasn’t very accepted to have them in there. Now we go to a family integrated church where everyone has all their children in worship, but those early years were hard when I was the only one. As Cindy mentioned memorizing creeds, hymns etc. really helps as they can participate in some aspects of the service.

    Comment by Kim (November 12, 2007 @ 11:25 am )

52. The nursery issue used to bug me terribly. Whenever I would say this child nurses and if he fusses you need to get me–they would just smile and nod. Yet my mommy radar would go off (perhaps I could hear just slightly) and I would go check and baby would be screaming his heart out. I gave up entirely after baby4 came and we are not in a church without a nursery.

    I hate when I see a small baby without a hat when it is chilly and or windy. Or an underdressed newborn (I see this a lot in the grocery store and I figure if I’m chilly in the frozen section–a tiny baby has to be!)

    Comment by Lyn (November 12, 2007 @ 11:26 am )

53. I’m in the “young mom” category…

    I laughed at your comment about the crusts, because this is one of my little “issues”… I’ve always been adamant that I will NOT cut the crusts off of sandwiches and I will NOT peel apples. I probably pander in other areas, but for some reason I’ve always held tough in this area!

    A question for “older moms” about discipline… you mention being irritated that young moms don’t discipline when their kids are disobedient in public. I don’t bribe or give in to requests for candy, movies, or whatever at grocery stores, for example, but I also don’t get into discipline with them, either, while I’m still in the store… when I get the “I hate you!” or whatever, I usually ignore it because they’re just trying to get my goat, or say “I’m not going to respond to you now; we’ll talk in the car,” and I’ve wondered how else to handle public back-talking, because I think discipline is best handled in private (a la “Shepherding a Child’s Heart”). I’ve been known to hold my kids’ hands to the handle of the cart while I push it through the store to keep them from pummeling me, all while they yell at me to “Let me go!” while I try to calmly explain to them that I will do no such thing, though!

    My thoughts have been that I’d rather suck up my pride and let people think what they want about my discipline methods, because these people only see how I handle it in the store and not how I interact with my children when we are in the car or at home.

    If you interpret this as not disciplining my child or ignoring bad behavior… and it’s OK if you think this; I’m not trying to be argumentative … what advice or thoughts do you have based on your experience handling disrespectful young children in public that is an alternative to your pet peeve?

    Comment by Renae (November 12, 2007 @ 11:28 am )

54. oops noW in a church without a nursery…

    that’s what I get for schooling, nursing and commenting all at the same time….

    Comment by Lyn (November 12, 2007 @ 11:28 am )

55. We never put any of our 7 children in the nursery, Kelly P. I had volunteered in the nursery before having children and I knew the attendants did not go and get the moms out of worship when their babies were crying. After our first baby was born, we sat in the balcony, so we avoided distracting all the adults who wanted to worship without children around. (The last row worked, too) The church we are at now has a cry room available but all the moms keep their children with them during worship and only go out if baby is fussy. Hope that helps.

    You don’t have to feel guilty for choosing to do something differently from others. Make your choices based on what you believe is best, and then you don’t need to feel bad if others disagree because you have consciously chosen a path for yourself. If you run across something new, reevaluate your choice, perhaps, but there is no need to feel guilty or defensive.

    When I find someone who does something differently from myself, (this happened last night) I have two choices…
    #1 - I am not convinced that their reasons are correct or apply to my family and I stick with my original opinion OR #2 - I see the wisdom in their position and I humbly change my own. Now sometimes I have to do a little research first to confirm their facts, but then I make an INFORMED decision. And I rest on that…until new information comes along!

    Disagreeing is not the same as judging another or condemning another. It is just disagreeing. We have the freedom in Christ to choose differently on matters of opinion (Romans 14) and we must not try to force the other into our way of thinking.

    Comment by Donna (November 12, 2007 @ 11:36 am )

56. my children are grown and in their 30’s. i am also a pastor’s wife. (just to let you know where my perspective is coming from.) i found it difficult to ask many older women for help when i was younger and needed help for a few reasons. one was that the ones who had the most ready (and rigid) child raising advice were rarely wanting to listen to what i was really asking. they were also the ones who had children who showed little evidence of spiritual interest/had poor relationships with them. over the years, God has graciously provided role models for me but they have been few and far between. they were people i needed to seek after as i watched how they related to their children/taught them about God.
    this will be a ministry that is a one-on-one ministry like that mentioned in Titus 2. for wise insight into how to minister most effectively to our younger women, we must understand where they (individually) are coming from and minister to them where they are (as Christ did) and mentor them to the next level. it won’t necessarily be a formal relationship in the sense that we have official times that we do this, but this is how we are to “build up” the Body. in this day and age, even in the Church, i find less and less people understand what it means to have a Godly marriage/family or even a healthy human relationship. many of these children have grown up on videos and TV (even in so-called christian homes). we can no longer assume that they understand basic concepts that many of us do (or think we do).
    i “get” the humor of your blog today. i really do. but concentrating on the flaws of these younger women who often have no clue in terms of role models, is a very sad thing.
    we have worked in a lot of churches in 40 yrs. most have had great histories but were all in decline when we came. for the majority of them, i would say that the attitudes of the older women (in varying degrees)has been a key to the church being where it was. in the church where the most success came, there was a core of older women who prayed like crazy for the church. they soon died off. in all the other churches, the functional attitude has been, “what is wrong with these younger women? why aren’t they working harder/doing more/doing things the “right”(our) way?
    helpful books for me along these lines (b/c i can only change myself): SPIRITUAL MOTHERING by Susan Hunt, PEACEMAKING WOMEN by Tara Barthel.
    btw, i agree with most of your list:) i just can’t dwell on it b/c it affects my attitude negatively when i am relating to these women. i have to love them (and their kids) and pray for them and help them step by step as they ask…and be approachable. that was how Jesus taught as well. i’m sure it is more effective. i know i can’t take in too much info at a time. it just doesn’t stick…especially when i feel overwhelmed. m

    Comment by martha10 (November 12, 2007 @ 11:51 am )

57. One of the reasons I started this post was so that it would help jar the memories of the older mothers and really help the rubber to meet the road. I am satisfied that it has done that because I think this whole discussion about the nursery is valuable even though we may have different approaches. I couldn’t actually do a regular post about the nursery without it turning into something else altogether. I was hoping to use humor to keep it from getting too hurtful.

    A few of you have been hurt and for that I am sorry but overall I think the discussion is meaningful.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 12:01 pm )

58. I know this comment is a little late in the discussion, but..my pet peeve: a child 3 or 4 years old (or older!) still walking around with a pacifier in his mouth. Sometimes I can’t even understand what a four year old is saying to me because of that awful thing stuck in his face. Get it out! Moms, you are being controlled and manipulated by that child into thinking he still needs it. And you are teaching your child to be inconsiderate of others at an age when he is more that old enough to begin putting others’ interests ahead of his own.

    Comment by Teresa (November 12, 2007 @ 12:19 pm )

59. For the young moms who were offended by this post and these comments: most of us are not condemning you, and I apologize if that is the way it feels!
    For me, I was basically reliving some of the mistakes that I now see in hindsight. Experience is a great teacher. And, in a way, most of us were discussing how we try to do things differently now. But I suppose reading these things can “sting”. I personally never have an ugly thought toward a younger woman who might ask for advice. It’s not that long ago that I was in her shoes! And I still have plenty of questions myself for those older, OLDER women whose children all all grown!

    Comment by Linda (November 12, 2007 @ 12:23 pm )

60. Oh my… I’m afraid I’m the one who started the nursery thing, and I apologize. My comment was mainly about moms who are manipulated by their children to stay with them in their class or in the nursery, on threat of throwing a fit. The mom who tries to sneak out when Susie playing happily, but when coming back to check on Susie, Susie (who has been playing happily) starts screaming “where were you?” and mom has to say, “Oh, I was coming back, I just had to use the restoom.” I hope you know what I mean.

    And believe me, I know there are inconsolable children, and children who aren’t ready for classes or nursery, and parents who *should* stay w/their kids in the nursery. I’m NOT saying “All children would eventually get used to the nursery if you just let them cry.”

    For young moms I think a good nursery policy in general is, tell the workers what you want, and be firm about it. Whether it’s “please let him cry 5 minutes and if he doesn’t stop come get me” or “I don’t mind if he cries if you don’t mind” or “We’re working on this, and I think she’ll stop in a few minutes, because I think she’s being manipulative but please let me know if she doesn’t.” (and I’m not making judgments about why your baby or child cries, just trying to give a wide range of examples.)

    And workers should respect the parents’ desire.

    Most nursery workers and Sunday School teachers want to help but don’t know exactly what parents want.

    On retrospect I’m not such an old mom after all and I’ll keep my comments to myself.

    Comment by jennifer (November 12, 2007 @ 12:42 pm )

61. #46 Kelley:

    I never put either of my kids in a nursery - because we’ve never attended a church that HAS one! It’s just not done in the churches we attend (church of Christ - conservative) and even if it were, I wouldn’t use it.

    My son was no picnic in church, either. It was a hard first two years. He was very fussy and needy, and nursed a lot to start with. Then he was just into everything as he got older, and didn’t want to be constrained by services.

    When he got old enough that that was the problem, I would take him out if he got fussy, to the cry room. Thing was, I *did not* allow him to do anything in the cry room. No getting down, no playing, etc. He could sit in my lap, and look at a book (not me reading aloud), or he could snuggle and go to sleep. No playtime. After a few months, he finally realized that it was a lot better to sit on the bench where his things were at and he could see what was going on, than to be in the boring ol’ cry room where Mom didn’t let him do anything, LOL!

    Comment by Demeter (November 12, 2007 @ 12:58 pm )

62. We have kept all of our kids in the services with us. We did have a nursing mom’s room that I used when I had babies and the other kids were really young….they just stayed with me in there and learned to sit quietly. We sat in the service until the baby became a distraction and then retreated to the “cry room”. It worked out well. Some other moms did the same, however, they kind of used the cry room as a play room instead of a “sit still and view the service in a place where our kids wouldn’t be a distraction” room. This situation served as a great training area for us….we had the baby/small kids in there and were teaching them to sit quietly and be a part of the service, but not at the expense of bothering anyone else. Although there were some other moms that had their littles in there as I mentioned above, they didn’t’ stay there long - so we were definitely the minority. We have been about the only people in our church in the past to have our kids in service - don’t let that distract you. Sometimes, people don’t really think that it is possible and you can be an encouragement to them. Also, I am sure that you know this, but just to encourage you, remember that you don’t have to do what others do - you are to be in good conscience before God!! Keep it up. It isn’t always the easiest route, but the fruit is great!! We have just moved to a different state and are in a family integrated church and it is such a blessing to be with others that have their kids in the service too!! It is a nice change for us instead of being the oddballs!!

    Comment by Karen Dunham (November 12, 2007 @ 1:40 pm )

63. I’m still definitely a young mom, but we’re still in the trenches with small kids in service. We have 4- and 2-year-old boys (and I’m 32 weeks along with a girl!) who have never gone to nursery. We feel convinced that we should worship as a family, but as our friends are now training their 3-year-olds to sit in church after training them to be in nursery for 3 years, I feel like starting them in the service is really the easier way to go. It’s easier to train a 13-month-old (13-18 months was the hard point with them both) to conform to what everyone else around them is doing — sitting still — than to retrain a 3-year-old who has grown accustomed to church as play time. That’s been our observations, anyway. Our church pipes the service into the foyer right outside the sanctuary doors, so parents can be out of the sanctuary with their wiggly or fussy baby or sit in a chair with a toddler-in-training and still see and hear the service.

    I do have a rather thick skin and a sense of humor, and I think I can take your list in the spirit it was intended. I’ve reached the point where I now realize that because a child throws a fit in the grocery store doesn’t mean he receives no discipline at home. I have found myself unintentionally in the middle of the store past naptime, and I have had gracious older moms help me bag my groceries while my newborn began wailing inconsolably in the front pack during checkout in the middle of a long line with a cartload of groceries (it has happened with each of them). It keeps me humble.

    Sometimes other young moms are the more helpful with advice, unfortunately, because the older moms don’t remember exactly what they did with a baby who wouldn’t sleep or a toddler who wouldn’t eat. They can remember the principle, perhaps, but a sleep-deprived mom of a baby doesn’t always have enough brain power to translate a principle into practicalities. Several times with my second, who didn’t sleep as well, I would have a friend with kids similar ages say, “Well, is he going through a growth spurt?” or “Has he gotten used to falling asleep being held?” And it’d be like a little light bulb going on in my dimmed mind, “Oh yeah, I think I knew about that at one point…” So,I think young moms who are being intentional in their parenting SHOULD blog and talk to one another, so they can offer those “in the trenches” practicalities. Yet, of course, it is the older moms who need to be there cheer-leading and keeping us in mind of the over-arching principles and the big picture.

    We already run into #8, even with Calvinists.

    Comment by Mystie (November 12, 2007 @ 1:47 pm )

64. whoops! my comments ended up in the middle of a nursery/no nursery discussion and it had nothing to do with that. it related more to the initial and early comments. m

    Comment by martha10 (November 12, 2007 @ 1:51 pm )

65. I left my first in the nursery. I never did any of my subsequent children. With my second, she had been very, very ill for some time, nearly died, was only 11 pounds at 8 months, and, frankly, I did not want her to cry, because she couldn’t afford the calorie loss and her immune system didn’t need the aggravation- and I was so grateful she was alive I was not ready to part with her at all. I have no regrets on that score.
    But our church did a nursery class for Sunday School, and so I sat with her in the nursery and it was fun for us. However, there I witnessed nursery workers LIE to parents about how long their babies had been crying. The dishonesty was consistent. NO matter how long the tot had actually been crying, the parents were told the baby had only just started.
    At our next congregation I did not put my babies in the nursery, but I did help out once in an attended nursery for a special church meeting, and again witnessed older mothers I had respected LIE to parents about how their children were handling the nursery. One poor little mite was stuffed with cookies, but he still whimpered constantly. His mother checked in often, and the nursery workers kept him out of sight and told her that he was fine. He was not. Later I learned that they had just moved that weekend and she was worried that the adjustment might make the nursery frightening for him, but was reassured by the lies she was told. I hadn’t the guts to tell her the truth, but I wish I had (I was 25). They had no right to make a judgment call like that for her.
    On another occasion while visiting another church, I sat in the back with my nursing baby and listened to a baby in the nursery cry for fifteen minutes, inconsolably. Her mother came to check on her, and the nursery worker LIED, telling her, “Oh, we were just this minute going to go get you, but she JUST started crying a minute or two ago.”
    So no, I do not think the nursery is required, and I would like to share one of pet peeves on the the other side, which is older women thinking they know so much more and so much better about things that they deceive parents ‘for their own good.’ That’s a sin, and it’s appalling.

    On the other, equally cranky hand, it does matter to me when I see parents cutting their childrens’ bread crusts because they are catering to and strengthening a self centered, dependent (in a bad way), and selfish, spirit that will make their child unpleasant to be around. I have never seen this be a single issue. Every time I see a parent who trims the bread crusts, I see one of two things going on- the child is autistic and has serious sensory issues, in which case, no problem. But more often, the parent has decided this is a ’sensitive’ child and is catering to pickiness in a million and one other ways, and it does affect character. I understand not liking the crust- I hated it as a child and still leave a corner of it on my plate because it’s just too dry for me. But trimming it? It pulls off the sandwich easily. There is no reason in the world the kids can’t pull their own bread crusts off if they don’t want them. It’s enabling all kinds of attitudes that should be squelched, not catered to. Incidentally, Cindy, I do know a mother who did this for her daughters, and those girls were a pain to have over because they were uncooperative, me-centered, expected me to do everything for them (including trimming their bread crusts) and they never have learned to put themselves out for other people, but expect others to do all kinds of things for them. They are teenagers now, and they are my relatives, and sadly, I just don’t enjoy being around them.

    It matters to me because I don’t like to see parents do their children such disservice. It’s not helping them.

    I am frustrated by young mothers who think it’s impossible to get children to sit still or mind, and so they let their children be disruptive in church, wander around, talk loudly, and be obnoxious in church so they don’t even try. Notice that last- it bothers me not at all when small children talk loudly, make sound effects for their toys, and misbehave anywhere at all, IF I have a sense that their parents are aware of it and working towards overcoming it. It’s when that naughty behavior is ignored, or worse, catered to, that I am unhappy, because I know that we’re all going to be suffering for years to come whenever we have to be around that child.

    I REALLY don’t like to hear mothers issuing idle threats (I’ll leave you) or say things they don’t mean (I won’t buy you this if you don’t… and the child doesn’t, but the mother does), or count to three. I was guilty as a young mother of the first and last- I didn’t ever threaten to leave them, but I was guilty of vastly overstated rhetoric that they knew I didn’t mean, and the time for that is not when discipline is warranted. We counted to three to give our child ‘time to process’ the command. Seriously. We decided she’d had enough processing time the day Daddy said, “One, two-” and the child pertly said, “Three!” and went on with her misbehaviour.

    It bothers me immensely when some mischief has occurred in a group of children and a parent is positive that their child would NEVER do x, y, or z, so couldn’t possibly be involved- it must be the other kid. It doesn’t matter how perfectly behaved your children are when you are watching or they are home with only siblings, there is no telling what a given child will do in a group- and in fact, the more positive you are that your child would NEVER, my sad experience and personal observation has been the less likely you are right. In a group of children you divide the common sense of any given child by the number of children in a group- no matter what the discipline is like at home (although, for some reason, the stricter the discipline at home, the more likely the kid is cutting loose in a group).

    I hate it when your child is so destructive I don’t want to have your child back in my home. We have a weekly Bible study here, and I have had to close off the upstairs to the children because of the children in one family. Even while I am watching they tear things apart, then hand them to me and tell me it ‘just broke,’ they handle things that are not toys and they are not careful with them, they tease my cranky older dog, they help themselves to all the treats leaving none for anybody else, and they are just holy terrors. They are 3, 6 and 8- and this is too old for the sort of ‘free range’ behavior. Their parents are constantly asking me for advice and ignoring it even while telling me that yes, that is what they do. I am at my wit’s end with these people.

    I am frustrated when young mothers take offense easily and lack the courage of their convictions. I agree strongly with many of the things on my fellow older mothers’ lists, and I disagree equally strongly with about the same number, and there’s a handful on which I am neutral. But rather than get your feelings hurt and take personal offense by comments made by people who couldn’t possibly have been speaking of you because they don’t even know you personally, it would be wiser to look the list in its face, think carefully about what we’re saying and why, and then think about what you’re doing and why, and adjust accordingly. Which means, in some cases, NOT AT ALL.=) And this frustrates me largely because I was like this and I regret it.

    When I was a young mother I got a lot of unsolicited advice from my husband’s grandmother. Some of it was really bad, some of it was really quite good. But I made it clear that I didn’t want that out of date, old fashioned, bad advice and I burned some bridges there that I really didn’t need to burn. It would not have hurt me to smile cheerfully and say “Thank-you” when told that I should be supplementing my totally breastfed three month old’s diet with fried chicken and mashed potatoes- I could have redirected the conversation by asking a question, saying I would think about that, or any of a million other ways. But in dismissing her advice the way I did, I closed off an opportunity to learn, an opportunity to build a relationship that I now wish I had not. And it’s too late. She died a couple years ago. She hurt my feelings, offended me, and got my dander up and I did the same right back to her, and I never tried to breach the wall that I created. She didn’t tell me the things she told me to hurt my feelings, but because she wanted to share something she thought she’d learned. I wish I’d been secure enough to take all she said into consideration and deal gently with those areas where I could not agree.

    In other words, I wish I’d had an old head on a young woman’s shoulders.

    And I really, really hate it when people are long winded.

    Oh.

    

    Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 12, 2007 @ 2:15 pm )

66. I agree with poster #33. I am not a young mom anymore, but I think this list was not well thought out as far as the effect it might have on those that read it. It didn’t really strike me as humorous, and I think that your list would make me afraid that you “hate” something about what I do if I knew you, whether it’s on the list or not. I don’t think that makes you very approachable. And you will never know all the reasons that may be behind all of those behaviors you “hate”. Have some charity, please.

    Comment by Lisa W. (November 12, 2007 @ 2:26 pm )

67. DHM,
    My grandmother absolutely insisted that the tiniest babies eat ice cream. She was a step-grandmother so she never actually had a real baby which was kinda sad for her.

    One of the reasons I thought a blog would be a good place for this sort of thing is that it is not personal. I am not pointing the finger at a particular mother and I don’t think it should be too harmful to anyone to think about whether they are controlling their children too much and disciplining them too little.

    Humorous was the wrong word, light-hearted would have been better.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 2:55 pm )

68. WOW- there sure are a lot of comments! I’m a younger mother of 5 (ages 7 and under) and this is what I hate about older mamas:

    1. When I ask for advice they tell me they can’t remember.

    2. When I am trying to train/discipline my child, the older mama wants me to over look sin because “they are so young or only a child once.”

    3. Being told “I don’t know how you do it with so many!”

    My heart aches for you older mamas to come alongside me and help or encourage! Keep up the good work!

    Comment by Heather (November 12, 2007 @ 3:19 pm )

69. Hi Cindy,

    I am an older mum, but I have to admit I now do some of the things on your list. I have relaxed quite a bit since my older children have grown and I have still have little ones, because one thing I have learned is to relax more. God is still in control of the children’s outcome and I think I have softened a little on the children. I used to be a bit harsh. I still make them eat their crusts (most of the time) but I do make them rug up a lot more now.
    I can relate to your peeve about young mums not asking questions of the older ones. I have noticed this too. It is hard to see an inexperienced mum going straight towards learning most things the hard way. I guess some people (like me) need that. I used to ask older women for advice, I just picked the wrong one a couple of times, which made me think twice after a while. But mostly it is a really good thing to do.
    Enough of my rambling.
    Blessings,
    Amanda

    Comment by Amanda Axelby (November 12, 2007 @ 3:24 pm )

70. Maybe it’s the word ‘hate?’ Maybe if we’d said, “As older Mums, it makes us twitchy when….?”

    Amanda, I’ve relaxed more, too, but in my case at least, I am not seeing that it has produced good fruit in my youngest two. They are not nearly as well behaved, mature, or as capable as their older siblings were at the same ages.

    Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 12, 2007 @ 4:03 pm )

71. I left the house only thirty mtes ago with the intention of commenting when I returned, and there are already 3 more comments! Heather in #68 captured most of what I was going to say.

    My biggest question to the older moms, though, is, why does something that someone else does bother you at all? Whether you use the word “hate”, “bother”, “makes me twitchy”, whatever else you might call it, it is still the same thing–being bothered by something that is out of your control and doesn’t really affect you. So what is it about other people’s behavior that is bothersome? I ask that of myself too. It’s hard to avoid exalting yourself (ala Luke 18) when you pay too much attention to other people when you are out and about. Best to just stay home and not think about it!

    Comment by Emily (November 12, 2007 @ 4:26 pm )

72. Emily, I tried to explain this, but let me try again.
    IT does affect me, because these mistakes result in personalities and attitudes that are unpleasant to be around, in a self-centered, me, me, me attitude that makes for an unpleasant society.

    It affects me because I care about younger mothers and hate to see them learning things the hard way.

    It affects me because older women are supposed to teach the younger women, and if they have nothing to learn, then why would we be told that?

    Being sad, frustrated, or disappointed when I see somebody making mistakes is not exalting myself. I know I made those mistakes too, and many others besides.

    Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 12, 2007 @ 4:59 pm )

73. And Emily, it just occurred to me, don’t you see that your questions work just as well turned around? If we should not be bothered by what other people do, even when we think they are doing things that make life harder for them or their children, or are actually harmful to their children, why should you be bothered by what we are saying?

    None of the comments by older women here were personal. We did not pick on something somebody specific here said they did and rebuke them for it. We generalized and kept it impersonal.

    YOu don’t know us. If I met you in the street I would not know you nor you me. So how is what I am saying affecting you? Nobody is forcing anybody to read this or to apply the suggestions here. If you told me who you were and it so happened that it was more than about three days after this conversation, I won’t remember it.

    Why is okay for you to tell us specifically that you disagree with what we are doing here, but it’s not okay for us to speak in generalizations about mistakes we see anonymous young mothers making?

    Why is it wrong for us to speak in generalities, but okay for you to broadly hint that we are exalting ourselves? In your own words, you are ‘being bothered by something that is out of your control and doesn’t really affect you. So what is it about other people’s behavior that is bothersome?’

    Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 12, 2007 @ 5:15 pm )

74. …and once again I will repeat the best parents make the worst mistakes.

    Oh, God bless you, Cindy.
    I think that’s the best thing I’ve heard in a long time.

    Comment by Andrea (November 12, 2007 @ 5:25 pm )

75. From my understanding this is a Christian blog meant for Christian women. I think we need to check our attitudes and see if they are in line with what the Lord wants us to be sharing. It seems that this post is complaining about other people and the way that they raise their children. Should we really be talking like this to one another? Shouldn’t we be lifting one another up?

    Comment by a young mom (November 12, 2007 @ 5:25 pm )

76. You are right deputyheadmistress, some of my younger children aren’t as capable at the same age my older children were, but we are working on that one. Only this week we made up a new work schedule and the younger boys feature prominently on it. At the moment they are excited about their extra responsibilities, but I know that will be shortlived. With boys in particular, they need to know how to run a household, among other things, so that they will be a blessing to their future wife,and their mum and sisters at this present time.
    Blessings to you and your family,
    Amanda

    Comment by Amanda Axelby (November 12, 2007 @ 5:59 pm )

77. I am a mom of 3 aged 4 and under, and I really appreciate the comments by the experienced moms. I get so used to my kids’ sin that I forget how egregious it is to those that aren’t living it 24/7. Before I had kids, if I was at a restaurant and was about to be seated next to a table with small children, I would politely request a different table, because I really didn’t feel like listening to the commotion during an expensive meal. Same thing in the pew at church. I have since become desensitized to all things toddlerish.

    It’s helpful to me to be reminded, and to learn, what is annoying/offensive and also to glean wisdom for how to train better. I don’t know why anyone would take offense or take it personally. Only a fool despises instruction.

    Comment by Mrs D (November 12, 2007 @ 6:04 pm )

78. When I first started this post it was meant as a light-hearted way to stir my own memory and others memories. Beyond point one I couldn’t even think of anything. I almost stopped at point 5 from lack of ideas and then a few things came to my mind.

    Of the 10 things in my list there is only one that could be interpreted personal in a way that would hurt someone’s feelings and I felt strong enough about that one to slip it in.

    It isn’t really a big deal if a mother cuts the crust or not or bundles the baby or not. I greatly offended many older mothers by always forgetting to put a hood on my baby in the winter. I would run into church hiding when I realized that I had once again forgotten the hat. I offended lots of older mothers in that way but I knew they weren’t trying to be ugly. They felt strongly that babies should have warmth. In this day and age of central heating that concept was lost on me.

    But it is true that some things do bother me. It bothers me when a man cheats on his wife. It bothers me when homeschoolers get a bad name because someone claims to be homeschooling but really just doesn’t want to wake up in the morning. It bothers me when parents don’t even know they have authority over their children. It bothers me when I go to a place of business and people praise my children because they didn’t cause a scene. We are getting praised for nothing because children are seen as such awful things by our society. It is bad for society when children are so incorrigible that no one wants them around.

    It doesn’t hurt anyone for us to discuss these things and it is not unchristian to do so.

    I can’t begin to tell you how much in real life I avoid hurting people. I am dreadfully sorry that a few girls are hurt.

    I try to always trust the intelligence of my readers, their ability to understand things without me having to spell everything out. Without a doubt this gets me into trouble sometimes but in the long run the I think it raises the bar.

    Underlying this whole discussion is the idea that we all are sinners in need of grace, that older mother have most of their wisdom from mistakes not successes.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 6:08 pm )

79. Thank you, Cindy and DHM and all the others who have shared the wisdom you have gained through your many years of experience. This conversation has been very beneficial to me. I appreciate you going out on a limb for this one, Cindy.

    Comment by Myfriendconnie (November 12, 2007 @ 6:37 pm )

80. Cindy, I am here from Amy’s blog. I am late to the party, as usual, and I feel bad for you. I was all fired-up about the flat-head comment because I have a flat head. A genetic flat head. Kids called me “Square Head” in elementary school.

    My eldest child has my head. It’s flat as a pancake on the back, and I know it isn’t because I didn’t hold her. She was more clingy than a baby chimp in a thunderstorm with a pride of lions at the bottom of the tree.

    Anyway, as I read, I realized you were making a list in a tongue-in-cheek, light-hearted manner and I should simply chill out.

    I had no idea how defensive I still am regarding my big flat head.

    Comment by gretchen from lifenut (November 12, 2007 @ 6:42 pm )

81. Gretchen,
    The flat-head was the comment I felt had the potential to be hurtful. The first flat-headed baby I met had been abandoned by his parents. He never made a peep. He was such a good baby and yet it was almost a loss of faith.

    Then a few years ago in one church we attended there was this rash of flat-headed babies. It has been a while now since I have seen one. I chalked it up to the babies being left in the swing or crib too long. It may be that it was just a product of the whole make them sleep on their back thing. I don’t even know which way parents are being commanded to make their babies sleep these days but maybe it has changed from the back hence the rounder heads.

    It really is a judgment on my part which makes it the worst thing on my list and it really is directed at moms not holding their babies which isn’t fair to all the flat-headed babies whose moms do hold them. Sorry about that.

    Comment by Cindy (November 12, 2007 @ 6:55 pm )

82. Wow. This was just awful.

    Not only were 2/3 of the items on your list not harmful to the child’s ultimate relationship with Christ, you really clinched it for me with this:

    “I try to always trust the intelligence of my readers, their ability to understand things without me having to spell everything out. Without a doubt this gets me into trouble sometimes but in the long run the I think it raises the bar.”

    Well, count me as unintelligent then, because I found your list haughty and offensive, despite the fact that you intended it to be funny. As I tell my son, laughing when someone else is crying isn’t nice. God doesn’t want you to do that.

    Comment by colicmommy (November 12, 2007 @ 7:54 pm )

83. OK, it took me a long time to get what DHM stands for–just got it! DHM, it’s NOT that I am bothered by this–I think that the older moms have good advice. I should have said that I am bothered more by MY OWN being bothered by other people’s behavior (like others’ kids misbehaving in public). I do agree with the things you mention–the problem (with me, at least) is that I only have a passing acquaintance with people whom I find unpleasant. YES, absolutely, in theory, lazy parenting produces unpleasant personalities and an unpleasant society in general. But I wonder why I rarely encounter people who I think are really that unpleasant, as I would expect to with all of this lazy parenting. I don’t think I get out enough, and I am not joking. I probably should, and then I would care as you do, for all the reasons you mention. I think I have simplified my life to such a degree that I do not interact with enough people who are different enough from me that I would even notice such things. What I said sounded uncaring, and it is, b/c I am sinful and selfish and I ignore people who are in pain b/c of their own choices.

    And I realize that my question can be turned around. Really though, your comment made me realize that instead of ignoring people whom I find to be self absorbed and indulgent in their parenting styles, I should befriend them and try to help. That sounds so simple, but I don’t do it. Lots to think about.

    Comment by Emily (November 12, 2007 @ 10:49 pm )

84. To Kelly #46…..
    I’m a mom who never had a child in the nursery. Why must we always separate the children off from the congregation anyway? I was raised in the Catholic church where there wasn’t a nursery, but instead, a cry room where a parent would take a crying child to console her. The parent could listen to the service (it was piped in) and rejoin the family when the child was quieted.

    Our non-denom church of 25 years has always had a nursery and children’s church and we have never sent our kids into either. We always brought books, matchbox cars, pencil/paper and cherios to church and we could generally get our kids through a 1 1/2 hr. service without ruining it for everyone else. Yes, we had to take our children out from time to time (out to the foyer or out to the car or outside for a “talking to”) but eventually they understood that church was where we could sing loudly when we sang, listen carefully when we should, and where we did our best not to distract others. And we did this as a family unit. Our 5 kids are almost all grown up now and I think they have fond memories of church. And they all still want to go!

    I made gobs of mistakes parenting and somehow, we all grew up together. God’s grace was (and still is) sufficient for my shortcomings.

    Jody

    Comment by Jody (November 13, 2007 @ 12:18 am )

85. Hi. I’m Jamee, and I’m a compulsive crust cutter-offer.

    :lol:

    My daughter is destined to be president, huh? LOL!

    I *think* I qualify as an older mother, even! LOL! My oldest is 17 & my youngest is 12 mos.

    I didn’t do it with my first, or second, ……..but the third, I just couldn’t help myself.
    Now, I’ve got the 4th, well, I fight the urge (and he’s the only boy) LOL!

    I’ve really enjoyed your blog.

    Comment by Jamee (November 13, 2007 @ 8:26 am )

86. One confession: I did count to three. It worked. It still works. I have no idea why.

    Comment by Laura A (November 13, 2007 @ 8:50 am )

87. Jamee,
    Your daughter very well be the president if out of 4 children she is the only one to get you to cut off the crusts!

    Laura,
    As long as you only count to 3 and not 4 and then 5 and then start counting to 3 again

    Comment by Cindy (November 13, 2007 @ 8:52 am )

88. Underlying this whole discussion is the idea that we all are sinners in need of grace, that older mother have most of their wisdom from mistakes not successes.

    All, right, then, Cindy. What are the ten mistakes that have given you the most wisdom?

    Comment by Michelle (November 13, 2007 @ 9:01 am )

89. Laura A–I would guess that the reason counting to three is perceived by you as working is that that is the level where you’re really serious about some consequences. Your children know that when you get to three that’s when they really have to do what they’re told. Problem is that you can be serious when you say it the first time and the consequences can result from just saying it and not giving the extended time allowed by counting to three. And when you say that counting to three works, you’re saying that your children eventually obey you, which is the pragmatic way of looking at it, but what have they learned about obedience?

    Comment by Patti (November 13, 2007 @ 9:04 am )

90. Fair enough, Michelle.
    I will be working on that post for Thursday.

    Comment by Cindy (November 13, 2007 @ 9:06 am )

91. I would like to add my two cents, if I may.

    Most young mothers think they know it all. I know I did. If I would have stopped at having 2 children then I would have thought my children were angels. I would have thought *I knew it all*.

    Part two of the problem? I think as a older mother (I am only 32 but have a 17 year old daughter), I am still figuring it out. When I have tried to share my experiences with younger women, usually they think they know it all. This is not all women but for the most part, it is what I have encountered. I simply tell them that if they don’t like my advice that is fine. I share what I know. I thought I knew it all before too. I just figured out that I didn’t and started listening to those that had convictions in line with what I believed. You simply can not go to a mother who has public schooled children and ask a question about home school because they don’t understand your point of view. The same with homemakers/not homemakers, etc, etc.

    I honestly believe that parenting in general has lost its common sense approach. I was not around mothers growing up but I had a huge mothering instinct. But when I had babies I simply did not understand the cries of them and thought I was doing something wrong. It would have been nice if my own other was a good mother but she was not. For those mothers out there that know what I mean, make sure you do your best to help those who seek you out. We don’t have to come across as knowing it all because it is a continuing journey. Just because my 17 is a good girl does not mean that I have the parenting a teen part down. It means I hopefully have raised this specific child into a good young lady. I might miss the mark with one of the younger ones. I hope not, but it might happen. If I see that I am screwing up I will seek out a fellow Titus 2 mother and seek advice. Above all, I will seek the Heavenly Father with prayer. Those who ask for wisdom and knowledge, He grants it!

    Blessings to all ~

    Comment by Mrs. Louisa Gabrielle (November 13, 2007 @ 9:14 am )

92. Moms of any age/stage who think they know it all and judge others on what they hold out as important dividing lines. Yes, new moms are probably the worst offenders because of limited experience (it’s all theory at first and then, once they’ve figured out their own 2 kids, they believe that they understand what all parents face with all kids and circumstances) and the fact that “parenting” magazines and their advertisers sell heavily the idea that choosing just THE right products, using THE right techniques, and holding THE right parenting philosophy indicates and guarantees excellent parenting. Complete the checklist and you’re golden. But I think this more diverse comment section has a fair amount of it going on, too.

    It’s especially annoying when someone elevates things that are, in the larger scheme of things, just not that consequential,like not allowing any sweets, not watching T.V. at all, not watching certain shows (like, say, Sesame Street or Veggie Tales), saying words like “pee pee”,and so many other things, to judge and look down noses at others. Out of such gigantic, life-shattering issues comes, “My kids can’t play with yours because you might corrupt them,” ???

    Comment by marian (November 13, 2007 @ 9:50 am )

93. An issue I see sometimes is this situation… Older mother has raised a few very upstanding, God-fearing children well through discipline. Then she starts “relaxing” with her younger children, who clearly show the negative effects of less discipline. But younger moms around her parrot her *current* methods (relaxed parenting), because they point to the older children as proof it works in the long run, not understanding that that method did not produce those lovely older children.

    I would love to see the older mom be honest, and say to the younger moms: I did not use this method with my older children, I am just trying something new, and I have no idea of the effects, so don’t follow me. I prefer getting them to talk about what they did the first time around, if they remember and if they are even willing (usually they aren’t), because that is great stuff!

    Maybe no one else sees this, and I am imagining it, but it concerns me.

    Comment by angela (November 13, 2007 @ 10:20 am )

94. A agree with Heather #68. I long for a true Titus 2 woman in my life who has walked this road of a larger family and homeschooling. I often feel very alone in our church, where there are few homeschoolers and few families with more than 2 children. I feel that often older women look at me as an enigma…or even worse, encourage me that “this season will pass, and then you’ll have more time for ‘ministry’”.

    I do find Titus 2 kind of mentorship online often…although one must take the advice of total strangers carefully, and not as quickly to heart as you might from a woman who you know and who knows you personally.

    Here’s a question for the Titus 2 crowd here…perhaps for another post…

    How DO you handle discipline of your young children when in public, within today’s modern, anti-discipline, pro child-rights culture? Quite honestly, it scares me to death. I even feel intimitated for disciplining my children at church sometimes (and I’m NOT just talking physical discipline.) I have told my children that they must “obey” me, and received looks like i was criminal. I remember my mom sp*anking me in a grocery store once (totally deserved I’m sure!), but can you imagine that today! 30 years ago, the store manager would have cheered on a mom who disciplined her children. Today, they are calling the police from their cell phones! What are we to do?

    Comment by Shawna (November 13, 2007 @ 10:51 am )

95. :lol:
    I linked here from Amy’s blog…and now I just went to you main page to see some of your most recent posts…that answer my question above! Very cool. I’m immediately subscribing! (And a Charlotte Mason lover, and Elizabeth Foss reader to boot!) I look forward to visiting here often!

    Comment by Shawna (November 13, 2007 @ 10:56 am )

96. Shawna,
    I do caution mothers to be careful in this world. It is not near an issue here in Alabama as it was when we lived in NJ. I get a kick out of seeing people pretty much get away with discipline in stores around here. I don’t suppose it is funny but I hear certain mothers threaten to whack their children upside the head and it makes me glad that I live where I do even though I would never recommend whacking a child upside the head.

    “Not the face, not the face…not the spine, not the spine…”

    Does that quote ring a bell for anyone.

    There is quite a bit of discussion on public discipline in the above post.

    Comment by Cindy (November 13, 2007 @ 12:02 pm )

97. I agree with Marian regarding this. I have limited or completely ended friendships that my children have had because the other child was not good for my childs soul. In the specific case I am thinking of, the friend showed my child inappropriate pictures, the children cussed at home, the grandmother told them to lie to me about the dog biting the baby just so I wouldn’t stop my child from going over there. When I see this child now, I am sad because she obviously didn’t have good discipline or training to put her on the right path.

    On the other hand, I would not end a friendship because someone says they watch Sesame Street or Pokeman. Some people take things too far. My neighbor boy wanted to play spin the bottle with my children a few weeks ago. I put a end to the game but let them continue playing none the less. With me close by, mind you!

    Everything needs perspective.

    And I think that mothers who have a lot of children tend to be more understanding and have that “I don’t know it all” attitude because once we get one thing down, a new personality comes and makes us learn something new! Ah, the advantage to having a large lot - not that my lot is that big with “just” 6.

    Comment by Mrs. Louisa Gabrielle (November 13, 2007 @ 12:30 pm )

98. Count me as another young mom who feels disappointed by this post and string of comments. I have only been a mom for three months, and already I am *so* tired of all the guilt and implied (or explicit) judgment among mothers. I wonder if we’d all enjoy motherhood a whole lot more if we spent more time giving encouragement and pointing each other to Christ rather than criticizing each other’s choices.

    I’m also a little puzzled/surprised by your #10. It seems to me that Titus 2 puts the responsibility on the older women. You complain that the younger women don’t pursue you…but why can’t YOU pursue THEM? I’m not talking about offering a string of unsolicited, critical advice like we see on this page, but maybe just offering, “What are you struggling with as a young mom? What do you need? How can I encourage or help you? Would you like to study biblical womanhood together–I bet we could both learn a lot!”

    Paul doesn’t tell Titus to tell the younger women to ask the older women to teach them. He tells Titus to tell the older women to teach. Mark Dever, in his study of Titus in The Message of the New Testament, comments (emphasis mine):

    “Younger woman, learn from an older woman so that the loveliness of the fruit of the gospel will be manifest for all to see. If the older women will not take the initiative with you, then risk embarrassing them, go up to them, and ask them to teach you. If they will not initiate fulfilling their biblical responsibilities to you, then, like a child who asks the delinquent parent for some food, risk their love for you, take the initiative, and ask them to fulfill their responsibility.” (p. 388)

    So yes, the younger women could take initiative…but it seems to me they only need to do this if the older women aren’t doing their job.

    Comment by Amy (November 13, 2007 @ 4:36 pm )

99. As a Mom of a 23 year old only child who wanted at least 12 children, I hate it when mothers complain about how hard they have it with all their children. Children are such a blessing.

    Comment by Marci (November 13, 2007 @ 5:11 pm )

100. Cheaper by the Dozen, of course.
     

     Comment by Kelly (November 13, 2007 @ 8:18 pm )

101. Amy,
     I am sorry you are discouraged. I wasn’t intending to complain that the younger mothers didn’t ask me I was trying to encourage them to ask by admitting that it was nice. Just the morning I wrote the post my friend at church said she felt like she was stalking me and we were only talking about spelling programs
     But by this time in these comments it is obvious that some of my attempts at humor were misunderstood by at least a few women.

     Kelly,
     Yeah, you got it. I knew I could trust you!

     Comment by Cindy (November 13, 2007 @ 8:55 pm )

102. I have posted a short blog on this topic that may/or may not help with the discussion.

     http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/grief4baby/

     Let me know what you think.
     Blessings,
     Amanda Axelby

     Comment by Amanda Axelby (November 13, 2007 @ 9:05 pm )

103. Oops, sorry, wrong link. Here it is again
     http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/grief4baby/426320/

     Comment by Amanda Axelby (November 13, 2007 @ 9:08 pm )

104. Just for kicks…

     I am a younger mom. I have four children 6 years old and under. I *love* it when older mothers offer helpful advice on discipline, but it comes rarely. I echo those who said that all too often they get something like “I don’t remember” in answer to their earnest questions.

     So, what are we supposed to do? If there is a younger mom is who is faithfully training her children and she’s recently been through a stage we are currently going through, is it really soooo bad for her to offer a little encouragement through advice? I know I’m not an expert, and I don’t pretend to be. But, I like to help and encourage, too, and if the older moms can’t remember what they did before their oldest was 12, I’ll step in if asked.

     Since no one REALLY answered Shawna’s question (#94), even though I’m only 32 and my oldest only 6, I’ll pipe in…

     Shawna, as a younger mother to another younger mother, I will happily give you my thoughts. I am only telling you what has worked well with our family. It may or may not help you. I HOPE the older moms will chime in if they have anything to add (smile, smile, wink, wink).

     Before we even go into the store, I get everyone’s eye contact and we quickly go over “the rules” for store behavior. I usually try to keep this light, not threatening. “Do we yell? Do we ask to buy things? Do we jump around or walk away from the cart? Do we stand on our heads? Do we square dance on the check out counter?” BUT, they know I mean business. How do they know? Here’s the clincher: because they know that if they are disobedient we will leave the cart right where it is, we will calmly go back out to the van (baby and all), we will calmly close the doors, and somebody will get purposeful “training” right then and there. Keep whatever “implement” you use right there in the van. Park further away to avoid being seen if need be, but take care of it right then. I’ve only had to do it once or twice with each child, and - as long as I’m consistent on saying what I mean and meaning what I say - that’s all it takes. I am not at all afraid to take all four children shopping with me.

     Honestly, now, I’d like to know why older mothers so often leave their younger crew in the van with their older crew while they shop alone? Why are the toddlers of big families so often allowed to stay in the van and act up with siblings who can’t discipline them instead of being trained to quietly shop with mom?

     May the Lord bless each and every one of you ladies as you seek to glorify Him in raising your children.

     Blessings,
     Jacci

     Comment by JacciM (November 13, 2007 @ 9:26 pm )

105. Jacci,
     I tried to point Shawna toward the more recent post where there are at least 27 comments on the subject.

     Comment by Cindy (November 13, 2007 @ 9:32 pm )

106. And now I look like a big I-Dot

     My only consolation is that older moms said the same things

     Comment by JacciM (November 13, 2007 @ 9:34 pm )

107. Just a suggestion for the older moms who wonder why younger moms don’t ask advice - if you want to offer advice, invite a younger mom over to your home and build up a relationship with her. Seek her out to mentor her. Ask if she needs help, or wants to come over for some coffee. Its a sacrifice for you, you’re busy with your own family, but its for the good of the body of Christ. For a lot of young moms the initial isolation from others who speak in complete sentences can be overwhelming, but they’re not sure what to do to build relationships with older moms who can mentor them. I’m so thankful for the wise older ladies who came alongside me and really shepherded me along when I had my first few children. It was no church program, just ladies who took an interest, made sure to call and check in on me, ask how everything was going and did I have any questions? Be the initiator and bless someone (rather than it being something that bugs you).

     Comment by Catherine (November 13, 2007 @ 9:43 pm )

108. Jacci, I can tell you why this older mom left little ones in the van with older siblings, or at home with them while I shopped- because I BLEW it! I relaxed way too far. I sowed the whirlwind and reaped a due harvest. Those youngest two are only 9 and 11, and I did realize what I was doing soon enough that I hope I only have reaped a dust devil and we can overcome the character deficiencies I allowed to thrive. I have a high hope that with much more consistency and prayer on my part-because I was much worse about this than my husband- and less spoiling from older sibling, this will be the case.

     Catharine, I agree that many older mothers are not doing their jobs, either, and that your comments, and some others along the same lines, have some merit. On the other hand, I have been hearing from older mothers for a long time, before I became an older mother, younger mothers simply do not want to hear what the older women have to say. Perhaps if the older women in somebody’s life seem not to speak up enough, somebody shut them up by such an attitude before you knew them.

     Now I am such an older woman, and I know what they meant. It is true.

     Look around. Whose blogs do you younger mothers read? Older mothers are out there writing about what they do- do you read and learn, or read and argue or get mad or get your feelings hurt- or do you avoid those and only look for other Mommy-blogs by mothers in your age group with children your age? I am not saying not to read those, but it is a useful (private) test to see how honest you (generic you, not specific) are about seeking advice from older women. Here is Cindy trying to give some, and look at the critical reaction from several young mothers.

     And, it is not that I wish to boast, but I am sure I am not alone in this so I am just going to be brave and say it. I think some of you are guilty of making assumptions that are not fair because something in this comments stung. Whether that sting was cruel or from God to help you do better, I cannot know and would not presume to guess, only you can know, but I do know that for several of us, your advice is far off the mark. So wherever you see ‘I’ here, I am sure it should instead say we, and none of this is glorify myself, but to point out that even those of us with much experience trying to reach out to younger women are seeing a certain- disinterest. You cannot teach if nobody wants to be a student.

     I could write a dozen blog posts, long ones, just bullet listing the havoc and mayhem wreaked in my home by the children of young mothers I have had over on a regular basis. I have had to resort to actually locking bedroom doors to keep visiting children out of private spaces after they had gone in and ruined things and all their mothers could do was comment on their ‘creativity’ or their ‘free spirit’ or speak admiringly of their genius for ‘exploring.’ I have held home Bible studies just for the purpose of coming along side some of these younger mothers and helping them out. I am a member of our local homeschooling group solely for the purpose of being there for younger mothers- there is nothing the group does for me, personally, I am there for others. I have gone with a single mother we met through the battered woman’s shelter to the hospital because there was nobody else there to hold her hand and be with her while she had her baby, and I invited her and her children home for two weeks while she recovered from the birth- and I had broken ribs and some other injuries at that time and it was not remotely convenient for me. We had her back for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and just because many, many times. Her children call me Auntie. I have somebody outside my family into my home *at least* twice a week, and usually more.
     Some of them are open to hearing some suggestions. More are not. They do not ask, and if they ask, they argue with my answer. They complain about their children and can’t wait to get out of the house, and they tell me why that ‘ahem’ form of discipline is abusive and unnecessary and they could just never do that to their children because they are too tenderhearted. Some of their children don’t eat my food, so their parents bring special food just for them- one little fellow who comes often apparently lives on white bread, butter, and milk, and he once went without eating until lunch time because his mother left to run errands before his bagel was done and she wasn’t here to butter his bread and rather than butter his own bread he would not eat. He is ten years old, and he’s quite bright, not disabled at all. Just spoiled. At lunch time when he told her (in a very ugly fashion) that he hadn’t gotten to eat yet because she did not butter his bread, she *apologized* to him- and made the boy a peanut butter sandwich since he refused to eat what the rest of us were having. My 9 year old son butters his own bread and he eats what the family is eating.

     I am married to a wonderful man with a heart for hospitality, and I have older children who are here and able to help me keep an eye on things- and there are still families where the behaviour was so intolerable that we did not want to have them back again, and I know that we have people in our home regularly that other families with a different dynamic just could not possibly host. \
     If you’ve never been invited over to an older mother’s home, or were invited just once and not been invited back, you might look to your children and your attitude. If you do not find them pleasant to be with out in public, it’s almost certain that other people do not enjoy them either, and not every older woman is married to a man who will cheerfully tolerate the sort of behavior we have seen regularly, and be bold enough to take a father aside, as mine has done, and point out that there are some discipline issues that need handling. Not every older woman has enough older children at home who can- and want to- help safeguard the pantry, block off the stairs, and protect the family pets while Mom is counseling a young mother or just listening to her. If you’ve shown a chip on your shoulder or your children are holy terrors in public and you gripe about how older parents have forgotten what it’s like to be young children or are dinosaurs- then no, probably not many older women are going to feel up to having you over for tea.

     And all that depressing stuff aside, I will share that one young family we have had over weekly for a very long time and that I had despaired over have slowly been showing some signs that something was permeating through after all, and tonight was something like a miracle. For the first time in nearly a year that they have been at my house on a weekly basis, nothing was broken, nobody sneaked food out of my kitchen, nobody called their daddy names, nobody colored on my floor, and their parents actually told their children to sit down- and they did. They were far from perfect, but we actually witnessed some indications that the parents have decided to at least try to be the grown ups, and I am so encouraged.

     Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 13, 2007 @ 11:55 pm )

109. This may be a new perspective:

     I am not a mother at all. I believe I am headed towards marriage and eventually motherhood.

     I can see why younger mothers are somewhat discouraged, if not deeply hurt, by what the older mothers have said. As a teen preparing for these things with no experience, the challenge is overwhelming as is. It seems somewhat cruel to list off their faults as they are growing and learning in their new role as a mother.

     At the same time, I can see why this conversation could be beneficial. But perhaps it’s the way the conversation was presented by older women that made it offensive.

     To the younger mothers (I’ll include myself in this category since I’m siding more with you): hopefully we can take this as an opportunity to be humble and admit you we have much to learn. Even if we don’t find the presentation of this information gentle or kind, hopefully we can still benefit from it. Let’s use this as a starting point to encourage the older mothers to advise us more often.

     To the older mothers: Thank you for what you have shared with us. Please take up the responsibility you have been given by God to teach us, meet with us, train us, mentor us, encourage us, and help us. We desperately need this guidance from you. We are all fallen and in need of grace, and Jesus would have it that you are crucial to our sanctification. We need you in our lives.

     Comment by Carly (November 14, 2007 @ 12:11 am )

110. I will sleep well tonight (after catching up with the rest of your posts) as a Mom who not only does not cut the crusts off the bread, but serves her children the heels as well. (I don’t know why, but they don’t seem to mind either.)

     Comment by Roberta (November 14, 2007 @ 12:44 am )

111. Roberta,
     I serve the heels upside down in grilled sandwiches. That is not to say I recommend being sneaky because I don’t but I know my children don’t mind the heels that way.

     Comment by Cindy (November 14, 2007 @ 7:37 am )

112. First of all I hope y’all are listening to the DHM because for years now I have noticed that she goes far beyond the call of duty in ministering to others and I have been convicted numerous times reading her blog.

     And her memory is pretty good also. She does have the stories that are very practical.

     Her husband reminds me of my husband. My husband, and this may be a key to this whole thread, is as concerned about disciplining our children as I am. Even more concerned I would say.

     So maybe the question we need to be asking is: Is the father disciplining the children, keeping them from sassing the mother, setting the tone in the family? I don’t recommend nagging husbands but I do think many women KEEP their husbands from doing their job in this area.

     Comment by Cindy (November 14, 2007 @ 7:42 am )

113. I’ve been blessed by this post, ladies. There is plenty to glean here if we get past the initial feather-ruffling of reading all about where we, as young mothers, may be falling short. The older moms do have so much to teach us.

     DHM very gaciously admitted that she has not been perfect with her younger ones, either, even as an older mom. Younger moms have certain weak areas, and older moms have certain weak areas, but we *all* have weak areas. All of us need the grace of Christ. None of us have arrived yet.

     Whoes weak areas are we going to focus on, though? If I spent my time bemoaning all of the older moms who let their 6th, 7th, or 8th child get away with murder, I’d be guilty of that splinter and log thing. I have plenty to concern myself with in my own heart. Now, if we can graciously (as I believe many of you older moms do) extend an edifying word to another mother without considering our own shortcomings too slightly, that would certainly be a blessing.

     I have a question for you older ladies. A friend of mine who has been a *wealth* of encouragment in the areas of schooling and child training is in need of a gentle word. Her youngest two are really getting wild since the birth of her newborn (9 weeks old). From where she is, in the thick of it, I’m not sure she can see how all of this is happening. It’s just happening. (Much like so many younger mothers who can’t understand why Johnny won’t eat anything but bread and cheese and milk.) But this friend has teenagers, she’s an awesome mother, and I’m only 32 with four young children. Is there a way to gently make some suggestions? Her 2yo is getting into trouble when my friend is in the nursing mom’s room (her husband is often meeting with someone - he’s associate pastor). I’d like to be able to suggest that she bring her toddler in with her, keep him with her more. As it is, he’s running wild and his older siblings cannot reign him in. He’s not as bad off as many of the children you all have described, but he’s definitely not headed in the right direction. The difference between her older children at this age ans her younger children at this age is astounding. I know this is common. I’m just wondering if a younger mom can make a suggestion when she sees a trend that may be hurtful to her friend’s family. Even though she’s younger. DHM said she woke up and saw what was going on and hoped it wasn’t too late to avoid a dust devil. Wouldn’t it have been a blessing to have another mother gently point out the issues, even if she hadn’t yet been where you are?

     This isn’t a theoretical question. I’m really interested in what y’all have to say.

     Blessings,
     Jacci

     Comment by JacciM (November 14, 2007 @ 10:10 am )

114. Ladies some of y’all are breaking my heart. If you only knew how meek and gentle, my wife Cindy, really is you would be ashamed of how far off the mark your comments have been. She consistent deals with her blog like she does her children…without being controlling. She has not taken a strong hand to control the direction of the thread/string or whatever blogger geeks call comments. She is honest, to a fault, and the main thrust of this blog (which I fully sanction, monitor and watch over) is to encourage younger women.

     She is a global thinker. When she said that she couldn’t remember what went on with younger children that was not a literal statement. Please keep visiting. If you disagree you are in a warm, welcoming environment to “hash out” your point of view.

     I will say that I have been extremely pleased by the teachable attitudes many (younger as well as older) ladies have displayed.

     Jacci:
     It sounds like your friend needs to have a “boot camp” The father if possible should adjust his schedule to invest a short period of his time for intense training.

     Mom and Dad in concert need to set up situations where they give commands just to let the two young ones have an opportunity to exercise their wills. (and deal with them lovingly, but swiftly and severely). Moms and Dads do not need a concrete reason for administering the ‘ahem’ form of discipline (as DHM would say). If they are out of control appeal to a certain part of their anatomy to return to control. Hope that helps. If they need more I’d be glad to help.

     The key to discipline is “FOCUS” - Tune in Dads…You can do it.

     Comment by Tim (November 14, 2007 @ 11:37 am )

115. Cindy, I don’t know you, but I love offering personal, unsolicited, blunt opinions on occasion. *cheesy grin* This is your blog and you don’t need to defend yourself. I myself talk “tongue and cheekese” and no one ever gets me. I speak the truth in love, but when you say something people don’t want to hear, you are naturally not “speaking the truth in love”. Written dialogue or commentary without benefit of tone of voice or hand gestures is open to interpretation. People need to assume the best and graciously give the owner of the blog the benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t matter how you could have worded it; humorously or seriously, defensive people (as I tend to be myself) can and will take it wrong. Looking at ourselves in the mirror is very painful so it’s always easier to shoot the messenger. We would rather have our ears tickled than have our iron sharpened by more iron.

     I don’t think you meant specific (it’s ok if you did), you were speaking in generalities and using humorous examples to make a point. You are talking about parents who let their children rule the roost. Younger or older mothers are all guilty at one time or another.

     That being said:

     Titus 2 has been mentioned several times. It says:
     “Similarly, teach the older women to live in a way that is appropriate for someone serving the Lord. They must not go around speaking evil of others and must not be heavy drinkers. Instead, they should teach others what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God”.

     The word “teach” is defined as follows: It comes from the Greek word sophronizo and Strong’s says it means: To restore one to his senses, to moderate, control, curb, disciple, to hold one to his duty, to admonish, to exhort earnestly

     Teaching hurts. I personally hate it. I hate it when someone dumber than me (so I think) tries to tell me what to do and I even dislike it when God teaches me. Why? 1. because it hurts and 2. because I’m prideful and strong willed. It’s a life long battle…I keep losing and God keeps winning. Hahahaha But in order for someone to teach, there must be a willing pupil.

     The one thing that drives me absolutely insane and I swear I’m gonna blow over this one some day is: the Christian parents who make excuses for their older teen boys by saying, “He’s just a boy, that’s the way they are”. NO, no, no, no, no!!! Becoming a Christian means we are sanctified, set a part, we are to be different, we are to be a changed person. You cannot sin and have your parents defend you or get you out of trouble by saying, He’s just a boy or that’s the way girls are. I’m sick to death of parents getting their older kids out of trouble with denial, blaming the other party or making excuses. I see it all the time.

     The reason why this thread has got me so stirred is because our lives have been directly affected by bad parenting in the past two years (We are far from perfect. My kids can tell you how bad we mess up all the time). I’ve been injured by my nephew who pushed me down and thought it was funny. I’ve had my home and belongings destroyed by uncontrolled kids (old enough to know better) when their parents come to my home.

     My 14 year old daughter (at the time) could have been killed, and was traumatized for life by a teenage boy at our church driving like a bat out of haydes, 80 to 90 miles an hour with boxing gloves on (I can use haydes, because it was a literal haydes for her that night). She begged him to let her out and he wouldn’t. The boys in the car talked about filthy things in front of her and they wouldn’t let her out of the car. His parents blamed her for getting into the car with him. Well, it was at a church function, 3 cars were driving to it, and the adults in charge of the function put her in that car. So no, she didn’t choose it and now we’ve had a big bill at the psychiatrist office because she kept checking locks, chewing her fingers off and wouldn’t get in the car with anyone but her parents for two years.

     The elders of the church took the boy’s side and said my husband was being like Abigail’s husband. Yea well, touch a father’s baby girl and you’ve got another thing coming. Considering the situation, he remained calm and as Christlike as he could!!!! And my husband never sinned in handling this issue. He went by the book, went to boy first and asked him to confess to his parents, then went to the parents, went with witnesses, met with the elders…whatever! Yea…so bad parenting DOES affect us.

     I have found this discussion to be very interesting and helpful. I read all of the posts. I’m an almost “older” mother (kids are 16 and 12). When I was young, I would have been hurt and extremely defensive if someone offered unsolicited advice. I remember my authoritative Austrian immigrant grandpa saying, “You’ve got to get that girl under control”. I don’t remember her ever being out of control, but someone from an older generation saw it that way and I was mad…MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS GRAMPS (I didn’t say that but thought it).

     Now I find myself saying the same thing. I know in today’s world we are to avoid name calling, but my sister’s 3 year old kid is….a BEAST!. He’s a bully; he pushed me down and thought it was funny and I have a severe back injury from a car wreck. When my sister tries to discipline, he tells her his imaginary friends are going to blow her up; he is spitting on her and taking swipes at her now.

     One thing I noticed her doing is trying to understand and validate his temper tantrums. I walked him up the stairs for a bath and after we got to the top, he screamed, kicked, foamed at the mouth, spat pea soup…you name it. He finally, after several minutes of convulsive breathing, spits out he wanted to walk up the stairs alone. He didn’t want to take a bath OR be told what to do, is all it was. He LIED, MANIPULATED, and TRIANGULATED within minutes. My sister says, “OK, run down the stairs and run back up real quick (so he could do it on his own). *smacking my forehead and thinking Oh Lord help me keep my mouth shut…help us all!*

     He did it again, when I had to go to the bathroom. I gently moved him out of the bathroom where he was playing in the sink. I was not impatient or unkind. He pitched another fit, screaming, banging on the door, kicking the door, etc. I finish up and came out. I’m confronted by my sister because I didn’t let the little guy flush his own poo. WHAT???? All I did was escort him out (and locked the door because I knew he would try to come in). There was no poo to flush, so he lied, manipulated and triangulated again. Later, my sister says when he is angry, I should validate his feelings. NOPE! Forgetaboutit! Not gonna do it. I will never validate that behavior.

     Just the other day, he was thirsty. My sister got him a glass of ice water. He threw a fit because he wanted to get it himself. (Now when I say fit, I’m not talking your traditional fit…I’m talking hysterical violence). My sister dumped the water out and handed him the cup so he could get it himself. This is wrong. Walk away and let them go thirsty. They won’t and they will learn an adult cannot be bullied. They will learn to ask for water nicely. If I was thirsty as a kid, my mom would say, you know where the hose or the faucet is. LOL

     There is a time to validate when there is a sincere broken heart and there is a time to walk away, or send them to their room or spank or whatever. (Time out chair was a big joke for my strong willed kids. It didn’t work for us).

     This is what I did: I’m not saying I’m right, it just worked for me. Whenever my kids were doing that, I told them to go to their rooms and feel their feelings for 5 minutes, then come back down stairs with a smile on their face and melody in their voice. Their “feelings” didn’t last that long, because it’s no fun to feel “feelings” if no one is watching. Now of course, if it is something serious, “feelings” are aloud and we comfort one another. But temper tantrums and fits of rage are not “feelings”; it is manipulation. I believe it is scriptural to not allow tremendous displays of emotion. We are commanded to control our emotions. Don’t make me give scriptural reference for that because I don’t have time, but I know it’s there.

     I told this long huge story simply to say, I see lots of young mothers not controlling their child’s emotions or not controlling them at all. Time after time, I see the children are in control. I can say this because I’ve been there too…I was a young mother once. I see again and again, adults being “terrorized” and controlled by brats…WHO’S IN CONTROL HERE?

     With this boy who hurt my daughter, we should have seen it coming. He was out of control. You know who rules that house? He does. His Mama and his daddy and his sister are all in subjection to him. He calls the shots and does exactly what he wants to do; his parents can’t tell him anything. Then his mama comes in and defends her poor little 17 year old baby who got ganged up on by a mean, mad daddy. It’s disgusting.

     Please don’t take offense or be hurt. We were young once too, made lots of mistakes and we’re all still learning and I’m not done parenting yet. I still have time to mess my kids up plenty. LOL

     I know I am hysterically protective and defensive of my children. *cough—pride—cough* I cannot stand it when anyone tells me something or my child gets judged. They don’t know my child and didn’t give them the benefit of the doubt. Like the other day my son told a girl at Homeschool co-op her karate chops stunk (they were playing karate). My friend only heard my son saying “she stunk” and severely corrected him. I was so mad at her. Leave my son alone. What’s it to you? Go correct your own children!!! (Yes, I’m thinking all this in my mind, but didn’t say it…I’m a jerk at heart, I’ll just confess now). I’m just as guilty as the next person of being offended if someone tells me something.

     As far as church nursery, I’m with #61. My kids never went. They have always sat in worship with us, and were removed immediately out of respect for other worshippers who were trying to concentrate.

     I do know God’s grace is sufficient and I pray everyday for God’s grace to cover all my mistakes as a mother. I’m sorry my post is so long, but I felt my epic saga was worth telling so I could make my “get emotions and your kid under control” point.

     And no, I cannot be brief, as my husband always likes to remind me.
     

     Comment by Michal (November 14, 2007 @ 12:51 pm )

116. Tim, (that’s my husband’s name too)…I’m sure Cindy is gentle and meek because she loves toile. Anyone who loves toile is in the gentle and meek catagory. LOL

     Blessings for the day!

     Comment by Michal (November 14, 2007 @ 1:01 pm )

117. Tim, can I just tell you that I think it is so great you posted! What a blessing

     Funny thing is that my friend and her husband are super great disciplinarians… up to this point. And I’m sure her younger two obey her at home. It’s the “freedom” of not being supervised that seems to ignite it all. Once they see mom and dad are not around, it’s crazy time. The ages of these boys are 2 and 5.5 years old. The 5 year old has been their “tough one”, but I really wonder how much it has to do with mom unknowingly giving too much open territory to the younger ones under the cover of older siblings “watching” them (which they faithfully do, but they aren’t the parents. They’re limited).

     I appreciate this series so much

     Oh, and thanks DHM for the blessings on my head :)My head needs them :)Now, off to round up my muddy gang from the backyard!!!

     Comment by JacciM (November 14, 2007 @ 1:25 pm )

118. JacciM,
     Tim was always very good at watching our children in public. So much so I always had freedom not to watch them. We never did let our children run off at church where we couldn’t see them and even now I usually know where my 9yo and 6yo are at church.

     But children are just so smart. They know us better than we know them and they will take any advantage they can get.

     My older children always tell me when my younger ones are making a fool out of me but before I had older children I just didn’t give my younger ones that opportunity.

     Michal,
     One of the reasons I feel strongly about this whole thread is that I have noticed parents genuinely do not know that they are in charge.

     We are all defensive about our children and it takes tons of discipline to listen to criticism from others. I determined early on to find the truth in what people told me about my children even if they were the type of people who got it completely wrong. There is almost always some truth buried in criticism.

     Just like it is very true that the biggest dangers older mothers face is not being faithful with their younger children as many of you have noted. It is hard to stay the course. And it doesn’t hurt us at all to be reminded that we need to turn it up a notch one more time.

     Comment by Cindy (November 14, 2007 @ 1:39 pm )

119. Cindy,

     I’m an “older” young mom (I’m almost 35, but the oldest of my 3 children is just turned 3) I agreed with your list 100%, and I even see myself in some of the things and hate them and we are working on them. (Thank you for the reminders!)

     Jacci,

     One of my friends, Heather (who commented on #68), has many small children herself has offered that when my husband is out disciplining the son and I’m nursing the baby that the 3 year old could sit with them. Is there any way you and your family could come alongside her and offer to let the 2yo sit with you instead of their siblings?

     Comment by dawn (November 14, 2007 @ 2:11 pm )

120. Parents who think their kids don’t understand. Seriously. Kids are smart!

     They name a consequence for disobedience and the next second ask if the kid has changed their mind yet. Parenting isn’t about threatening into obedience! “That’s it! You’re going to time-out! Will you be nice to your brother? Ok, go give brother a hug.” Two times maximum before a kid has it figured out that he can do anything he wants.

     Or time-out at all. In certain situations it might work. But if a kid wasn’t obeying to begin with and your only recourse is time-out, why would the kid stay in the corner? Are they really thinking about what they did wrong when they’re two? And isn’t it more likely that they’re plotting, getting angry at Mom, or throwing a pity party?

     Those from someone who is not an old mom or a mom at all; sorry! But I guess it’s from someone who remembers being a kid and figuring this stuff out from that end of it.

     To God be all glory,
     Lisa of Longbourn

     Comment by Lisa of Longbourn (November 14, 2007 @ 3:12 pm )

121. Jacci, I do not know what to tell you about your friend, although perhaps Dawn’s suggestion would be good. Maybe it would be especially helpful if you said, “Little Johnny seems to be giving his older siblings a hard time while you are nursing back here and Daddy’s busy. Would it be helpful if your family sat near us and we helped your older children by keeping an eye on the two year old?”

     I can tell you how it was brought to my attention that I was not doing my darling littlest two any favors, but I am a stubborn and slow learner so it took me some time. I am also selfish. I so adored these two babies that I had to wait so long to have that I did not want to discipline because it hurt MY feelings and made ME have to be the grown up instead of the very nearly idolatrous worshiper at the feet of my small darlings. And I was tired. I was ready for a bit of a break in the discipline arena and I wanted to act more like a doting Grandmama than a responsible Mama.

     I guess it probably was a lot of things over a period of time- several times noticing the things I could not do with these two that I had been able to do with ease with their older siblings, but there are three particular ‘wake-up’ calls that stand out to me:

     #1- my sixth child was a smart cookie. She did everything months in advance of average. She started walking at 8 months, running at 9, signing somewhere between 6-8 months, speaking by about 9 mos (one and two word phrases, but still, speaking). But I persisted in a belief that she really did not understand what ‘no’ meant when I said, “No. Don’t touch that, or No, you can’t have that.” I would tell her ‘no,’ she would not obey me (usually she would scream when she heard the word. Did I say I was slow?), and I would sigh and mildly go take away whatever she wasn’t supposed to have or give her some other treat. I saw my friends looking at me funny, and I would say defensively that she really didn’t know what ‘no’ meant.
     One day when my child was perhaps 12 months old, maybe a bit younger, a mother several years behind me in the mothering road said sweetly to me, “If she does not know what you mean when you say ‘no,’ why does she scream at you before you even move? Don’t you think she must just not like that word for some reason?”
     I was ashamed. And you know what? I was the older woman who had taught this woman, when she was a young mother of toddlers that it was a good thing to administer some judicial seat dusting when needed, and that it was not a bad thing for it to smart. Oh, yes, I was ashamed.
     It did help, a little. I knew she was right and my little girl knew what no meant. So I mostly quit saying it.
     Did I say I was stubborn and slow?

     2. Exact same situation as Jacci mentioned above- I had a nursling, my seventh child. Daddy was often either at work or helping out some other way up front at church. Our sixth was 2 when the 7th was born, so sometimes I had to leave her with her older sisters while I took Baby out to nurse. But in my case, my older children (girls in their teens) said, “Please don’t leave her with us anymore. She won’t mind us and her behaviour is disruptive and we are embarrassed.
     It helped. It helped because these older children had contributed to her spoiling, had often cried and intervened when ‘ahem’ was administered on rare occasions, and now they were cheering me on. I did get a grip on her behaviour in church. I took her to the nursery with me and refused to let her get down and play. She had to sit quietly there, with no toys, and she was allowed a small toy and a book in the main worship area. I took her out and applied what needed applying when it needed applying- I took an older child with me to hold the baby while I did it.
     But it only helped a little, because I didn’t get a grip on it elsewhere and she knew that I was really only serious about her behaviour at church. At home she would stamp her feet, slam doors, tell me she hated me (she was three). My mother did comment that she was the only child in my house who acted like a typical teenager, as all my teens were basically well behaved- not problem free, obviously- but not stompers, door slammers, and screamers, either. That comment made me a little puffed up about my teens but it ought to have humbled me to the ground about my toddler. It did, years later when I came to my senses. Slow. And stubborn. I am so stubborn.

     3. My son, the seventh child? He was also spoiled rotten by his doting parents and his doting elder siblings. Until one day- I think he was six- he actually called an older sibling in from another room to shoo away a fly that was bothering him while he tried to play a game. She sarcastically said something like, “You want me to drop grapes in your mouth, too?” and he was very interested and asked, “We have grapes?”

     We laughed at him and called him the young Rajah- but we knew it really was not all that funny. I think that was when things started to get really, really serious at home and abroad.

     They are now 9 and 11, and things are still not what they were with the older kids at the same age- but they are much, much better than they were heading. I would never say we have succeeded here, because they are just too young for us to know, and we must stay the course and see how we all sail through at least another ten years. I must not again grow weary in doing good.=)

     I think it’s interesting that in almost every one of those examples, even though it took way too long for me to fix things, it was a younger person who brought them to my attention.

     Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 14, 2007 @ 3:13 pm )

122. Older moms,
     Thank you for your humbleness in sharing mistakes that you have made. While I commented that I was discouraged by this post I have now been encouraged to have gleened some adviced.

     I was unjustly offended by this post. The things that you said that you “hate” were definetly things that I “hate” also. I do not do those things and my friends do not do those things. I think what we are really hating is the sin of mothers not following God in the discipline of their children.

     It is only by the grace of God that we have a church full of older and younger mothers to spur us on. I realize now that not everyone has the support and the teaching that I have had.

     I am not afraid to have young children from our church in our home. However I am afraid to have a neighbor’s young children in my home. How are we to reach out to these women when we can’ t stand to be around their children?

     I am in know way saying that my children are perfect. They are only 6,4,2 and 2 months. They are sinners just like me but it is my job to help them to deal with their sin and not to ignore it.

     I would have to say as a young mom the biggest mistake that I have made is being too controling. It is one thing to have your little ones sitting quietly with you in church but if they are not obeying on the inside it can be very dangerous. How do we get around that? How do we know that they are obeying on the inside? I don’t want them to be “sitting down on the outside but standing up on the inside”. Do you have any advice on this?

     Comment by a young mom (November 14, 2007 @ 3:41 pm )

123. Dear young mom,
     Thank-you very much for your humbleness.

     As far as the “standing up on the inside..” after all these years we still have to discuss that daily. I think talking about the Gospel day and in and day out and applying it to life really helps with this over the long haul.

     I have more to say but not enough time to continue right now.

     Comment by Cindy (November 14, 2007 @ 4:48 pm )

124. I think I was too unclear about my nursing friend. This is *after* church, while she’s nursing and her pastor-husband is in a meeting. This is not during the service. Our church is very, very tiny, though, and children running this way and that even after church can cause some serious upheaval. Sorry for being unclear.

     But, really, I think what DHM had to say helped me out. It might just be time to gently suggest her toddler coming into the nursing mom’s room with us. “You know, no one would mind if you brought him in here. I’ve brought my 3yo in to sit with me before. I’m sure it would be fine”. Something to that effect. I haven’t seen them in 2 weeks (traveling), we’ll see how this Sunday goes.

     Thanks so much for your very sweet (and open) help

     Jacci

     Comment by JacciM (November 14, 2007 @ 5:15 pm )

125. Jacci,

     Dawn’s suggestion is great. Several people have given our pastor and his family this kind of help. Most Sundays, at least one of their children is sitting with another family so Mama can be tending their baby with an easy mind.

     Such an offer would have the additional effect of alerting the parents to the situation with their little boys.

     Comment by Helen (November 14, 2007 @ 7:31 pm )

126. I have *finally* been able to get all the way through these comments! This was a wonderful conglomeration of advice and hints. DHM had some great thoughts, and so did many others. I especially appreciated the discussion of older moms with their younger children. I see that “relaxation” happening with me, and even more with a friend of mine, and it was good for me to read this.

     And I loved the comment (forget who it was) that HERE is an older woman who is offering advice! Are we humble enough to accept it or will we make excuses and argue, then continue to complian that there aren’t any older women?

     Thanks for writing this and taking the heat of disapproval, Cindy. It has sparked a lot of excellent discussion!

     Blessings~

     Comment by homefire (November 15, 2007 @ 9:01 am )

127. I’m a mom of a 9 month old (who unfortunately has to work full time, but hopefully, God-willing, not much longer)… so I guess I’m a young mom.

     If I was going to say I “hated” one thing - I hate when I don’t get compassion from older women who forgot that it can be hard and scary for a new, young mother getting so much conflicted advice from everyone around her and who feels the most compassion from her mother who tells her stories of how frazzled she was with me before she got the hang of it.

     I also hate being judged. I’m trying and by the grace of God I’ll get there. I know these are in good fun (I hope), but I feel so lonely and isolated and to be completely honest, good support is hard to come by these days as a young 20 something who’s surrounded by people her age more interested in drinking and partying than getting married and having children…

     So if you see a young mom, just love her. She probably needs it.

     As a side note, I had a friend who is an older mother who’s last baby had a flat head because when they put him down to sleep, he insisted on putting his head to a certain side no matter what they did.

     Comment by Shannon (November 15, 2007 @ 9:42 am )

128. I am sorry to see that being an older mother doesn’t make you more gracious to younger mothers. My 10-month-old is a sweet Babywised, scheduled child. Yes, I taught him not to grab his bib while he eats. Yes, I get lots of compliments on his good behavior. But I am not arrogant enough to believe that he is so good just because I am an awesome mother. He is a good baby partially because I have been careful to work on training him, but he’s also good because it is his temperment to be compliant. I will never automatically assume that a child is not being trained well if he acts up more than mine does. That would mean that I am lacking in humility, and that’s the last thing I want, whether I’m an older or a younger mother. I don’t like this post because it doesn’t show grace to other moms who are trying very hard to do the best they can with their children. They’re learning on the job. I understand that you might be trying to be funny. I like funny. This isn’t it.

     Comment by Ellen (November 15, 2007 @ 5:15 pm )

129. Ellen, your entire comment shrieks out that very lack of humility. It takes a certain level of humility to see the light touch in Cindy’s post. It takes a certain level of pride to take offense. It takes an immense amount of pride to take offense as you have chosen to do.

     Your comment lacks any charity, and it lacks it deliberately. IF Cindy erred in her attempt at humour- and I do not think she did- it was an error, not a deliberate attempt to wound and sting. You cannot say the same thing. You mean to hurt.

     I am, frankly, more than a little puzzled that you feel qualified to rebuke Cindy (or anybody) for a lack of grace and graciousness. I keep reading your comment, and every time I am more shocked.

     I hope that you are never one of those young women lamenting the lack of older women. I hope that you grow wiser and kinder as you grow older as well.

     Is it any wonder older women are hesitant to speak out? Look at the reception. It is a grievous thing.

     Comment by DeputyHeadmistress (November 15, 2007 @ 7:44 pm )

130. Cindy (and Tim),

     I am a pastor and the father of 12 children ages 27-3. I am also the grandfather of 4.

     I’m sorry to join the critics, but in my opinion, this post misses the mark entirely. My wife read it the other day and was so bothered by it that she had me read it, too. I usually don’t comment on women’s blogs, but I see that Tim commented, so I will also.

     My two eldest daughters and eldest son are now parenting their own children. The people who are most discouraging to them, and frankly, to many of the young women and men in my congregation, are men and women who have been in the exact position they are now and yet feel free to offer criticism and wisdom without humility or grace. Thankfully, my children have parents who offer Biblical instruction and wisdom and generally, we even wait until asked. But so many young men and women in the church don’t have that gift. And beyond the church, I would venture that the majority of parents don’t have the benefit of wise and gracious elders.

     You assert that this post is just for fun, and is meant to be lighthearted jesting. Perhaps that is true for you, though I find that often when I judge in jest, the truth is that I have a tendency to judge harshly in the privacy of my own heart. Perhaps that’s not the case for you.

     I know that you have other posts that have proved a great encouragement to your readers. I see you have quite the ministry here and for that I am thankful. Hopefully, women seeking Christ for their families are seeing your love for Him in other posts.

     But, all in all, I would say that this post is does not do much to further the kingdom. It is not funny, not light-hearted and most certainly is not encouraging. In that regard, I think it misses the mark of Titus 2 almost entirely. And it seems to me that many of your commenters are defensive because they have erred in the same way.

     Young mothers, I hope you will exercise forgiveness and keep seeking Christ in His word, keep turning your hearts to Him, guiding your children in His ways and remembering that His grace and mercy are enough…

     even if you cut off the crusts!

     Comment by Ron (November 15, 2007 @ 8:51 pm )

131. I’ve been reading the latest comments with interest, but haven’t had the time to formulate a thoughtful response. I didn’t want to be a drive-by commenter, though, since things have been said in response to my last comment, so here goes.

     First, I certainly appreciate Cindy’s graciousness in responding, many times, to young moms like me who didn’t appreciate the post. She didn’t have to do that. And I also thought her husband jumping in to fight for her was very sweet

     In proposing that the older women need to step up and take initiative, I didn’t mean to imply that none of you older women are doing that in real life. I have no way of knowing whether you are or not. All I had to go by was a few comments saying “I wish they would ask me”–so I was trying to issue a challenge of, “Why can’t you take the initiative?” I’m sorry if that came off as hurtful. I commend and thank those of you who are actively reaching out to young mothers, especially when you’re doing so in spite of the fact that those young mothers and their children frustrate you.

     To be honest, I hadn’t thought about the idea that “older women don’t speak up enough because somebody shut them up by a know-it-all attitude before I knew them.” Makes sense. You’re right, you can’t teach people who don’t want to learn, and that must be frustrating! Perhaps I did not display humility in my comment–for that I must ask forgiveness. I certainly have no desire to be that “know it all” young mother.

     It was said that perhaps we young mothers were unhappy because the older mothers’ comments stung. Let me clarify that I was not speaking from a place of specific personal offense. At three months old, my son is too young for sandwiches, and it hasn’t gotten cold enough here for me to worry about bundling him. He also doesn’t have a flat head It’s not that I don’t anticipate making a hundred million mistakes–only that I haven’t *yet* had the opportunity to make the ones listed here

     In fact, I thought Cindy made some valid points; I wasn’t really bothered by anything she said except #10 (which I already addressed). That was the main thing I should have focused on. However, I was also bothered by what *I* perceived (perhaps incorrectly) to be the spirit of the criticism collectively–not Cindy’s original post but the comments, the whole thing taken together. As Ron (#130) indicated above, my experience is that judgment in jest is likely expressing what the heart feels more harshly about–at least that is usually the case with *me.*

     When I saw a group of older women criticizing the mistakes young moms make, it seemed to me just one more instance of mothers battling each other. I understood that it was meant to be lighthearted, but humor or no, I just didn’t find it edifying.

     I think Shannon (#127) hit an important point when she mentioned feeling confused by all the conflicting advice. Godly moms have very different opinions on a lot of things. Some of them are non-essentials that have no bearing on a child’s salvation…some are more important matters, with mothers from opposite perspectives both believing that their way is the best, most effective way for a godly, loving mother to raise a godly, loving, well-adjusted child.

     I feel tired of the criticisms about the non-essentials–so much judgment and most of us, young or old, really are just trying to do the best we can. Motherhood, especially at the very beginning, feels overwhelming enough without seeing how older moms will judge you for the choices you make in what are often simply matters of opinion. And I find myself confused/frustrated with the conflicting advice regarding discipline, sleep patterns, etc. As I said–people I respect lie on both sides of many of the issues.

     Someone mentioned how unfair it was to make assumptions about older moms based on comments here. I already apologized for doing that, but would like to add, please don’t assume that we younger women who didn’t like this comment thread are unwilling to pursue or hear advice from older women. (For the record, I have had wonderful experiences being mentored by older women, and do read the blogs of older women to glean from their wisdom and experience.)

     I think part of the problem is, there is a difference between an older woman coming alongside a younger woman, in the context of a relationship, and helping her to see her weaknesses and teaching her the wisdom that comes only through experience…vs. a group of older women collectively criticizing younger women. (I also think even a blog post can feel more personal and gentle when it is one woman sharing her experience and wisdom, rather than a pile-on of criticism.) Again, I will admit that I could show more humility and teachability by simply gleaning the good advice here and ignoring the rest–but I do think that hearing advice from someone who is personally investing in your life is far different. So that is what I was trying to advocate for in my original comment.

     Sorry to be so long-winded. I hope all that was gracious and made some amount of sense.

     Comment by Amy (November 15, 2007 @ 11:02 pm )

132. Amy,
     We are in the process of shutting the comments down but I do want to say that of all the things I said in my original post #10 was supposed to be the olive branch that said, “Don’t be afraid of me. I enjoy talking to you.”

     A blog is a forum. You make a choice to read it.
     At this point I am highly confused about why people were even reading this blog or even other blogs.

     In my original post I had no idea what I was unleashing and I can see that I am guilty of unleashing emotions people were feeling that I was not aware of. I am still not convinced that the dialog this brought forth wasn’t constructive.

     Comment by Cindy (November 15, 2007 @ 11:16 pm )

133. Pastor Ron,
     Thank you for your response to Cindy’s post. Cindy has tried to stimulate ideas and bridge open dialog between younger and older mothers. I would agree with you that there have been some passionate feelings as well as hurtful thoughts expressed, but not just from the older mothers. I respectfully, but strongly disagree with you that this thread has missed the mark of Titus 2. Many young mothers have been encouraged and stretched, but unfortunately, a number of others have been discouraged. Many blogs run by younger moms have actually linked to this post this week and commented that this post and others in the series were very helpful.

     Most of her new readers came over from Amy’s blog and until Amy linked to Cindy’s blog, this was just a friendly little blog without a large audience (no offense to Amy). Cindy in turn linked to The Welcome Home blog and was extremely saddened that “one of the godliest women that I know was attacked for absolutely no reason”.

     As I said in an earlier response, Cindy is a global thinker. She was speaking in generalities and it was not her intent to injure or disparage anyone. It has been, however, her desire to raise the bar of substance that is presented on the World Wide Web in the name of Christ. She has been discouraged herself about how much drivel is being offered up as an example of Christian motherhood. No one is always 100% on target in content and in the vehicle in which it is presented, but in my biased opinion, Cindy consistently aims and hits very close to the mark. She and I have never given much credence to “Cookie Cutter Christianity” we celebrate the freedom we have in Christ to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I truly believe though, that if any young mother is truly interested in seeking an ongoing, honest display of a seasoned home school failings and successes, this blog will be a great field in which to glean.

     I believe it is time to close the comments on this post. Thank you again Pastor Ron and others for your interest and comments over this last week and hope future dialog is possible.

     Comment by Tim (November 15, 2007 @ 11:21 pm )

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