Fri 21 Sep 2007
It is a funny, sad thing but negativity sells. In order to boost my blog hits after my dismal rejection of it, I have decided to tell you all about the things I would have blogged about had I been blogging last month which I was not 
I put the smileys in for those who never quite know when I am joking
In truth ( I am sick of saying actually), my final irritation which happened last night in Decatur, Alabama decided the fate of my blogging venture. I just HAD to have a place to vent.
If you wake up at 4:00 am with a pithy blog post running through your head it is best to get up and blog it. I am sure that is what G K Chesterton did. If you wait until 7:30 to write your thoughts down they will lose their pithiness. Nevertheless, while being witty is lethal, it’s the thoughts (ideas) that count.
The world is ever turning on the widening gyre and all that, but sometimes we wake up and realize it must have turned a whole lot while we were sleeping. Suddenly everyone is saying things that just a few years ago no one would have said or thought. That’s ok for a while until suddenly you begin to realize that everyone is Everyone and the world has turned upside down.
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
I am about to tell you about three separate issues that are all connected in my mind. They are all screaming at me that the world has changed, that good is now evil and evil is called good. It has changed so much I very much doubt that you will agree with me on all 3 things, which sort of implies, I guess, that I think I am right, which I do. But that can’t be helped. I always think I am right. I know that I am not always right, I just don’t know where I am wrong. When you can’t be G K Chesterton go for Bertie Wooster.
I will start with the one you are most likely to disagree with on then proceed to mature content followed by blasphemy.
1. I am driving along in my car along 565 in Huntsville/Madison, Alabama. Madison, Alabama is the birthplace of the middle class. It couldn’t be any more suburban if it tried. But it does try. Everyone in Madison always does everything right. They save money and buy iPods and send their children to rival universities and go to church. There are so many Toyotas for dad and Suburbans for mom it irks. I get curmudgeonly just driving in Madison in my Honda van on my way to a pedicure. I feel just a tiny bit superior. At least I know this is all a silly game. I am a detached onlooker and social critic but I am playing and that is where all the angst comes from. Someday I will buy a farm in KY.
Anyway, there is a big billboard. Unfortunately I can’t remember EXACTLY what it says. I am a global thinker. But it is for a local college and it says something like:
Own a successful business? Make it count by getting your degree at our easy-to-attend university.
Let us pause and think. What is wrong with this picture?
My blood pressure is up just writing that down. For me it is the last straw. I am so entirely sick of this whole college thing. Of course, everything I say sounds like sour grapes and I must admit a few of my gripes are sour.
How did this happen? When did getting a college degree become important after you had succeeded in life? Now please understand I am not talking about EDUCATION. If that is what we were talking about it wouldn’t be an issue. I would go to Bannockburn, New Saint Andrew, St John, even Bob Jones in a heartbeat to improve my education. But I am just so offended that people think that masses and masses of students can go to college, get a degree and it means something. You can argue that the piece of paper means something in our society but that is where it stops. It is a piece of paper. If you are successful, you are successful you don’t need a piece of paper to prove it.
I know, I know. There are a lot of societal issues here. I am just saying it is a game and don’t ever forget it. I hate to break the news but not all of our children are Above Average, right? My point is that this shouldn’t matter one whit. God made lots of people; they can’t all be Above Average according to the current trends in Madison, Al.
There is a whole fulfilling life for ordinary people committed to Christ and content not to constantly strive after false values. Only they can’t be too ordinary for they have to be very brave and very sure.
I want to apologize for beating this horse so much but I am not going to. Somebody must beat it.
Ok, ok, I am not going to be able to tell you about 2 and 3 right now. I have to go lie down and think of waves while listening to Tchaikovsky.
40 Comments
RSS feed for comments on this post.
Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.
YES!! You are back and in rare form.
You were missed dear Cindy.
Comment by Janet (September 21, 2007 @ 9:18 am )
Beat the horse, Cindy. It’s encouraging and refreshing and for crying out loud, It Needs To Be Said!
Comment by tonia (September 21, 2007 @ 9:23 am )
Glad you’re back. Can’t wait to read the rest!
Comment by Laura D. (September 21, 2007 @ 9:54 am )
It’s a Statist issue in my opinion, Cindy. Not that my opinion counts for anything, but I’m forever offerring it.
These colleges/universities that advertise on billboards are all publicly funded, just like government grade and high schools.
Their goal is to make *obedient* citizens.
And so, I hope you wont worry so much about your (or your sons) not having one of *their* pieces of paper.
*We* know what’s important….and that’s all that matters.
Dana in GA
PS If that Bible verse was written so long ago (as in thousands) and was applicable then, what makes you think the world has really *changed*?
PPS Looking forward to rants #2 and 3
Comment by Dana (September 21, 2007 @ 10:14 am )
Excellent question, Dana! I guess what I am saying is that my world has changed, the people I know most especially. Maybe I have just lost my insularity but I think not. I really think that public schools have succeeding producing a race of lemmings, not that the heart of man has changed. I am just often surprised at who has become a lemming, and They (?) call us Stepford wives
Comment by Cindy (September 21, 2007 @ 10:21 am )
Welcome back! You have definitely been missed.
Comment by Birdie (September 21, 2007 @ 10:30 am )
Good rant (I hope that’s not an oxymoron :-))!
Whenever I bring up this topic, one of the biggest objections raised by those who disagree is that their children need the degree in order to show they have a “real” education, as if it can’t be obtained any other way. Yet I have met many who have the degree who don’t read or show interest in learning new things after they pocket the degree. And like any generalization, there are many exceptions to that, as well…
My husband, who has one year of Bible college and one semester of community college to his name is beginning a new business venture with a very well-known company whose VP was happy to have his expertise and never once asked to see his degree. But maybe you should send me the phone number from that billboard so he doesn’t have to be embarrassed if the topic should arise ;-).
Comment by Carmon (September 21, 2007 @ 11:08 am )
Oh Cindy! I always suspected I had good sense, and now, well, now (!), this proves it!
Comment by Amy's Humble Musings (September 21, 2007 @ 11:43 am )
This is great, really great. Thanks for “preachin’” it.
Social commentary like this makes me really, really wonder about Noah’s day: Every inclination of the thoughts of man’s heart was only evil all the time. ~Genesis 6:5
..I’m just wonderin’.
Comment by Andrea (September 21, 2007 @ 11:50 am )
Cindy and I spoke about this very issue on the phone last week. I commented that most of the pressure I’ve felt to send all of my children to college comes from the church itself.
I’ll tell a little story here, if you will humor me a bit. My daughter (19) is engaged to be married in May, 2008. Her fiance is a grad student who will have degrees in both chemistry and math when it is all over. Danielle has never attended college for various reasons. There was one dear, well-meaning, but very concerned woman in church who informed me that Danielle’s new hubby might be embarrassed in the future when he is “hobnobbing” with the intelligentsia some day and has to introduce his wife, who will have to state at some point that she has no college degree. The people will then look down on her for her lack of a degree. Her fiance was quite put out about this and assured her that was not his concern at all, but we were all a bit up in arms over it. That is just one incident of many. It’s the church, people! The church!!!!
Comment by Linda (September 21, 2007 @ 12:05 pm )
Amy, in relation to this, what does it mean that you both have me as a webmistress and a friend? (Although ,admittedly, I sort of “roped” Cindy into that first position . . . maybe for the second one, too (?) :P.)
I have been planning to email you today, Amy. I think your new blog design is almost ready. Why don’t you take a look at it and let me know what you think.
Sorry to high jack your comments, Cindy. RE: your post, you know I’m in agreement! I’d say more, but I’m tired of typing left handed while Baby naps in my lap.
Comment by Valerie (September 21, 2007 @ 12:18 pm )
“There are a lot of societal issues here. I am just saying it is a game and don’t ever forget it. I hate to break the news but not all of our children are Above Average, right? My point is that this shouldn’t matter one whit. God made lots of people; they can’t all be Above Average according to the current trends in Madison, Al.
There is a whole fulfilling life for ordinary people committed to Christ and content not to constantly strive after false values. Only they can’t be too ordinary for they have to be very brave and very sure.”
O.k. I have to argue with you here a little bit, Cindy. But I still love ya!
Why is getting a degree a false value?
You have Dr. Grant to listen to because he got further degrees. Think of all those you listen to and learn from - Vigen Guroian, Andrew Kern, whomever - you know your list better than I do. They offer you something because they went on to get higher degrees. Those degrees opened BIG doors for them. And we all benefit. We all look to people’s degrees (good, godly people) to tell us something about them. It really doesn’t carry as much weight, in the larger arena, to say: “I don’t have a degree but I’ve read this list of books, so trust me, I know.”
It isn’t just a game. (Maybe I’m reading too much into what you are saying though.) There are good, even great, institutions of higher learning out there. I want to go to one! I want my children to go to one! Not because it’s a game I’m playing. Not because I am under the Fear Of Man and think I have to in order to receive their approval. But because there are such great things, great conversations going on behind those walls! It’s enriching. It’s like great food!
Why do you connect being Above Average with getting a degree?
I admit it. I am naive and idealistic, but, in my mind, these two things don’t necessarily go together. Coming from my perspective and family history, I think you have to be “very brave and very sure” to go to college and get a degree - not Above Average.
I believe that college is just a furtherance of education - not a separate game. Of course, I’m talking about a good college. There’s plenty of junk schools out there, but I’m not even considering those.
I don’t believe in IQ tests, but I do believe in persons being made in the image of God, and therefore, I believe, as someone else has said :-): that education is repentance - maybe even especially higher education. I know you believe this too, but hear this in the context of higher education that leads to a degree from an excellent school.
By Above Average, do you mean: outside ordinary life? Like, Dr. Grant, Guroian, Kern, etc. They are living outside the ordinary because they are shaping at least some major/minor segment of society.
In a moment of being realistic (I have those moments occasionally
, and you’re going to hate me for saying this (but please don’t ;-): it is harder (harder, not impossible) for a person to make their way without a degree than with one. There are no guarantees and my anecdotal experience doesn’t make the rule of life, but my husband’s degrees helped him and my lack of one has hindered me. I would have been better off to continue on to higher level mental work.
I know with God all things are possible, but just because God uses a donkey to speak to a man, doesn’t mean we should all own donkeys!
Well, I have many more thoughts on this, but this is already too long. I’ll close and I truly look forward to your thoughts.
Comment by Gail in OH (September 21, 2007 @ 12:37 pm )
So glad you are back Cindy. Lovely poem and great post today. This whole college thing frustrates me, but from a different angle. My husband has an advanced degree (Ph.D) but neither of us have felt that college was necessary and would be happy if our children did not attend. However, our oldest son is attending college this year and I feel very much like a hypocrite. I can justify it by saying that all his interests and skills seem to be in areas where he “needs” a degree (the child is like his father, actually loved physics and calculus). But I also feel sometimes that this is just an excuse. Another part of the frustration is just what to do with a son who does not have a passion for anything in particular and does not have the personality of an entrepreneur . Maybe those things can be taught, but if we have not taught them (as we lack them ourself), what do we do. Of course from that angle it looks like we send him to college because we don’t have anything else to do with him, which is the wrong motive for college also. So I’m frustrated that he is at college, but I don’t know what to do otherwise. I probably haven’t explained as well as I could, but must go pick up my girls (who incidentally will not be going to college - we at least have them figured out).
Comment by Kim (September 21, 2007 @ 12:51 pm )
Gail,
Just very quickly and maybe more later. I don’t think getting a degree is a false value. I think HAVING to get a degree is a false value. Plenty of jobs NEED degrees. Historically 20% of jobs need advanced training. There are even some jobs where advanced training is good but a gifted person would not need the degree. Now with the world being turned upside down you have 80% of the population attending college. As I said before all this does is lower the value of the education.
I totally agree that it is harder to make it in our society without a degree. But I also believe that what is going on in many schools for 80% of the population is not education.
On a practical note I think getting a degree is a good idea for my sons. In spite of that there are some strong forces at work to keep most of our kids in school longer and longer. What are those forces? Why?
What I meant about the above average thing is that if everybody is above average nobody is. Every middle class parent at every ballgame I attend, and baseball is the sport of the middle class, has high hopes for their child’s baseball career, SAT scores and college. They all think that their little darling is above the common. Surely this cannot be true. Every first born homeschooled son is not the penultimate prodigy, though the world of homeschooling is filled with Mama’s little darlings.
I don’t connect being Above Average with getting a degree; our society does. Plenty of highly intelligent people have degrees and I don’t disparage their degrees or their intelligence, I just think we need to face the fact that only 20 % of the population need degrees.
I don’t recommend in any way shape or form having highly educated students and people. I just don’t believe that ultimately this is really God’s way. The fact that we all think it is God’s way, the fact that we measure God’s blessings to us in this way, says it all.
Gail, I would love to continue this conversation with you because it helps me to clarify just exactly what I am saying and it won’t leave other readers confused.
Comment by Cindy (September 21, 2007 @ 1:07 pm )
Cindy, You were missed.
There are loads of pressure on all sides for our son to attend college some day.
He is five.
The issue I struggle with when thinking of college is that getting in has become the complete focus of educating the young. Many people seemed more concerned about our homeschooling because of the college issue than about the children being truly and wonderfully educated.
Comment by Brandy (September 21, 2007 @ 1:24 pm )
Oops, I meant:
“I don’t NOT recommend in any way shape or form having highly educated students and people.”
Which is another point. Education should make you feel uneducated. It shouldn’t make you brag about your degrees.
Comment by Cindy (September 21, 2007 @ 1:34 pm )
OK, I wasn’t going to use my husband as an example, but if Carmon did, I guess it’s OK.
I understand what you’re saying, Cindy, because we have encountered this same problem, and like Linda commented, in our case it has come from the church.
Looking back, my husband would agree that having higher learning, possibly from a reputable seminary, would have been very helpful throughout his years as a pastor. However, he WAS a very respected pastor for sixteen years, and it wasn’t because he had a piece of paper. Back when he was beginning in ministry, the church still looked at the qualifications listed in scripture in order to select elders and teachers. He has a shepherd’s heart and is able to teach among other gifts, and that was evident to the people in the church bodies we ministered in, and that was what mattered. It seems that today all most churches want is the degree, as if that somehow entitles a man to a ‘career’ as a pastor. (And please don’t hear me say that bible college or seminary are a bad thing…I’m not saying that.) We unfortunately know many men serving as full-time pastors who have the degree, but don’t have the gifts and/or do not meet the scriptural qualifications of an elder. It seems to me the church has bought the world’s standard that the degree makes the man, even when it comes to appointing leadership within the church.
I suspect if my husband were to seek out a position as a pastor after being out of ministry for three years now, most churches would select a 23-year old with a seminary degree whom they don’t know rather than an older man who has served as an elder and who meets New Testament qualifications whom they do know. I hope that makes sense.
And by the way, he has built a very successful entrepreunerial business the past three years, and his only higher education is two semesters of community college. He served as a faithful pastor for years and is now a successful business man, yet he is still asked often by people questions which sum up to, “When are you going to get serious about life and get a degree?”
Comment by Lisa W. (September 21, 2007 @ 2:03 pm )
Cindy,
I’m a long time reader and always your thoughts. The same things frustrate me especially when I travel back to some parts of MS…and then I feel bad that I lack love or compassion. But it’s like this warped existence where everyone’s working 2 jobs in order to make payments on a home they’re never in or to drive a car that they only use going back and forth, and to impress people they don’t really know. It’s just so crazy and no one stops to ask, “why”. And the college thing is so irksome too. I am just so thankful that the Lord has saved me!
This is a topic (college) I need to really be thinking about as I prepare to homeschool in the upcoming years. You bring up such good points. Thank you for writing about it…I appreciate your insight in exposing the root. A piece of paper cannot make up for what is already lacking.
Blessings,
Kat
Comment by Kat (September 21, 2007 @ 2:31 pm )
Cindy,
It is grand to see you back… I’ve missed you sorely!
Onto your topic… you thought we wouldn’t agree… pish posh….
We have chosen the no college route as well, and not without criticism. Having 5 daughters has made it somewhat easier… but not completely. Because ya know… we are tryin’ to keep our daughters in the dark ages by teaching them how to cook, clean and knit.Our family hasn’t given us much trouble in the last few years, thankfully. Initially when we began homeschooling my mom thought my children would walk around perpetually saying, “Duuuuhhhh????” Since they are well versed and can hold intelligent conversations with just about anyone… they have decided that I wasn’t so crazy afterall.
Linda (and others),
Have you noticed how many churches look for elders-deacons only among those who have degrees? I know this is a whole other soapbox on which to stand… but it ties into the thought that the piece of paper assures many things… job security (I know many I.T. people who have been without jobs for over a year… that piece of paper didn’t help them then), leadership ability, and spiritual understanding(I won’t go into my thoughts on most cemeteries.. I mean seminaries). It is sad that many men who God has blessed with compassion and just plain common sense and a clear understanding of the scriptures are not even considered… due to educational prejudices.
I can’t wait for #s 2 & 3! I doubt that you are alone in your thoughts.
Welcome back!!!
Comment by Lora K. (September 21, 2007 @ 2:47 pm )
Thanks for sharing, Lisa. I was hoping you would. And welcome to the blog world.
Comment by Cindy (September 21, 2007 @ 3:49 pm )
Maybe I’d be more inclined to finish my degree if an affordable college offered a quality education. A degree should be worth more than the paper on which it’s printed. College is just too dumbed-down nowadays and I have better uses for my time and money. I learn more in one day homeschooling than I did in a whole semester at the university.
Comment by Mrs. Happy Housewife (September 21, 2007 @ 4:37 pm )
Interesting discussion. Helen Keller wrote some thought provoking words on college that are worth a look:
“Gradually I began to find that there were disadvantages in going to college. The one I felt and still feel most is lack of time. I used to have time to think, to reflect, my mind and I. We would sit together of an evening and listen to the inner melodies of the spirit, which one hears only in leisure moments when the words of some loved poet touch a deep, sweet chord in the soul that until then had been silent. But in college there is no time to commune with one’s thoughts. One goes to college to learn, it seems, not to think. When one enters the portals of learning, one leaves the dearest pleasures – solitude, books and imagination – outside with the whispering pines. I suppose I ought to find some comfort in the thought that I am laying up treasures for future enjoyment, but I am improvident enough to prefer present joy to hoarding riches against a rainy day.” (snip)
” A thousand odds and ends of knowledge come crashing about my head like hailstones, and when I try to escape them, theme goblins and college nixies of all sorts pursue me, until I wish – oh, may I be forgiven the wicked wish! – that I might smash the idols I came to worship.”
Comment by Poiema (September 21, 2007 @ 9:30 pm )
Hi Cindy :^),
I think we are not far apart in what we believe about this at all.
Referring to the 80/20% stuff, statistics tend to leave me cold, but I’ve thought about what you are saying and I see your point of view. However, with my own children, what we are trying to teach them is that we believe the jobs in the 80% category are, for the most part, not jobs that (a) will use their talents and abilities; (b) they will want in the long run; (c) will support a family really well. I realize that *really well* in the previous sentence is very subjective, but there it is.
Years ago, I knew a wonderful, homeschooled young lady who wanted to be a missionary. To my question, “What college are you going to to prepare?”, she bristled and said haughtily, “you don’t need to go to college to be a missionary.” You know, in one sense, she is absolutely right. In another, she is dead wrong.
You know, in your own home, in your own hometown, people can know you and your talents and abilities, but once you leave your own little world and enter the wider world of which we are to be in, but not of, you need something that shows others what kind of preparation you’ve had in order to do the job that you are seeking.
It is an arrogance to think that, in a world of 7 billion people, that one should be treated on a uniquely individual basis. This is why there are norms established.
We also are teaching our children that it is an arrogance to believe that one does not need to ‘submit to the authority of those who know more than we do’ at the young age of 18. And we feel that it is just plain ol’ common sense to do that towards a degree - something that shows others that you’ve purchased the ticket to ride the train.
I agree that most universities should really just be burned to the ground - they are a disgrace to the whole idea of education. I agree that there have been people who have done great things without degrees, but I think that are the exception rather than the rule. I agree that most jobs don’t require a degree, but most of those jobs, I don’t wish to see my children break their backs over for the rest of their lives.
I think it is a problem to put the degree *before* the person. By this, I mean, that *who they are as a person* - character, etc. - should be considered first. But just because some (many) in the world are looking only for the degree doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Thanks for your answer, Cindy!
Comment by Gail in OH (September 22, 2007 @ 2:46 pm )
Hi Cindy~
Again
I sent my post, then went to take a shower and, of course, thought more about this.
I wanted to say that I don’t think that those who don’t go on to get a degree are *necessarily* arrogant. I couldn’t make that judgement in anothers’ life. However, we are teaching and trying to impress upon our children that we think it is an arrogance to think that one doesn’t need a degree “from them”. I know I’m going to offend people with my statements and you have no idea how much I don’t want to do that, but I am trying to be really honest here.
Putting it in medieval terms, the 80% is sort of like the “peasant” and few in that society (the 20%) actually got to go on to be able to study the quadrivium, or even needed to, for that matter. But now, again in medieval terms, we have some control over whether or not we are “peasants”.
I also feel very strongly, and here I think you will really agree with me, Cindy, that a good classical, liberal arts, quadrivium education as a *young adult* will undergird *any* job - even those in the 80% category. So, even if our children were to choose a job in that category, we would still feel that a degree from one of the colleges that provides what I just described would be necessary for them as people.
I emphasize ‘young adult’ because I want to distinguish the education that they can get as a high schooler - even the very best - is not sufficient once one has matured in mind and spirit to a young adult. They need to study some things as an adult that just won’t have the same impact if they are studied as a high schooler. Am I making sense there?
Well, I’ve gone on long enough! I welcome any thoughts you want to challenge/share - esp. if you think I am completing missing your point!
Comment by Gail in OH (September 22, 2007 @ 3:27 pm )
Gail,
I think that in many ways we do agree but in some key ways we don’t.
I think, that while I will do my duty to help my children pursue a vigorous education, that ultimately that education will fail them. Ultimately some trust in chariots and some in horses but we trust in the name of the Lord.
I am a bit more hands off with my children’s future from a general feeling that God does have a plan for them. Certainly my husband and I want to give them direction but we also know that they must seek and trust God. I know this sounds perilously close to a Christian anti-intellectualism but I don’t intend it to be at all.
I don’t think I would ever use the word arrogant in the way you are using it. I am more likely to think a person with a degree who boasts they have never read a book in their entire life is arrogant.
I also would take you to task about people who do well without degrees being the exception rather than the rule.
Finally, I am listening to this month’s Mars Hill Audio and Ken just began talking about the idea of the University. I am in whole-hearted agreement with the idea of the university, but it is a fact that idea has fallen on hard times.
I think as Christians we must pursue the education God leads us to pursue but acknowledge that it will only take us so far.
I also disagree with the idea that someone deserves credit for “making it through” a degree program. I hear that all the time and I think it is a poor excuse for excellence.
Peasants are Christians also. Certainly we are both talking about an elitism. I do not reject that. I reject the idea that 80% of the population is elite or that God cares whether or not we are elite. God resists the proud. Anything we do to build pride in our children is to their harm. I have seen this sort of pride built on an anti-intellectual basis as well as an intellectual one.
I really think our culture has lost its soul in the area of education.
I suppose the question is: Can people who say “phooey” make it in the world today. I believe they can.
My dil has a degree from NSA a liberal arts college. Does that gain her the respect it should? Well from me it does, but in the eyes of the world and even the church she just wasted 4 years of her life learning Greek and Latin.
I am very close to believing we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. We need a real baby not a hobgoblin.
Comment by Cindy (September 22, 2007 @ 4:13 pm )
Gail,
Getting back to my original post, do you think the successful business man, say a landscaper like Lisa’s husband or a guy like Rush Limbaugh should go back and get their degree to fit in socially ?
How much debt are you comfortable with your children taking on?
Should people have fewer children in order to enable the children they have to go to college?
Comment by Cindy (September 22, 2007 @ 4:19 pm )
Not to interrupt this fascinating conversation, but…
I guess a question for Gail would be rather it is really necessary to go to college to study the quadrivium? I attended undergraduate and graduate school without ever even knowing what the quadrivium was, and, now that I know, I find it much more efficient to learn these things on my own.
I think I am more inclined to agree with Cindy as a general rule, that college is a game. And, of course, our family will play it if we need to. If our son desires to be an engineer, our state requires a degree for doing the job, and therefore we would help him get one. But we view the degree as a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself.
Comment by Brandy (September 22, 2007 @ 4:48 pm )
Oh, Cindy, I’m afraid it would take a lot more than getting a degree to help us fit in socially.
Maybe I should schedule a pedicure? 
Comment by Lisa W. (September 22, 2007 @ 5:04 pm )
Ladies,
This is a great discussion. Everyone’s comments are thought provoking. Your position, Cindy, is especially interesting, as I know that you sit under Dr. Grant’s teaching. We have a tape of his, “Dumb and Dumber,” which he opens with, “I was robbed…” and continues with a critique of modern education.
Last year, we attended the graduation ceremony of my alma mater, a private Christian liberal arts college. I hadn’t been to a college graduation in over twenty years. Mrs. Happy Housewife’s comments reminded me of this event.
There was a lot of “magna cum laude” and “summa cum laude.” In some departments, half or more graduated with one of these honors. A man in administration there admitted that they are looking into the problem of grade inflation.
Another thing about this graduation: many of these students had silly decorations on their caps. It seemed absurd that they were marching in to the ceremony accompanied by grand music, wearing sparkles, springy things, signs. Many of them seemed to consider the whole thing frivolous.
There’s another consideration I’d like to add to this conversation: equipping a young man to be able provide for a family BEFORE he has one.
Our oldest son is 21. Two springs ago, we considered NSA, a bit late, I know. After four years at college, he would be 24, well-read, for sure, but still not prepared to earn a living wage. We knew he’d be ready (in most ways, at least) to be married before then.
So he has taken a different, non-college track. When we had our house remodeled, he helped our contractor, really liked the work, and has been working at a cabinet shop since then. He is also in a four-year carpentry apprenticeship program through our local home builder’s association. (He got a year off because of his experience in the cabinet shop!)
(BTW, I think the electricians and plumbers ended up costing about the same, or more, than the architect did, in terms of hourly charges.)
And you are right on, Cindy, to bring up debt. Don’t we all know people who have had this burden for years? We know one young mother who struggles with thinking she ought to be out there making money to pay off their college debt.
Certainly, there are some callings where further education is appropriate. But I think it usually turns out to be how my husband described his college experience: four more years to postpone adulthood.
Comment by Helen (September 22, 2007 @ 6:11 pm )
I thought of another thing: the ministry potentional of some of the “less-educated” vocations. We saw an example of this earlier this week with our son’s friend, the car mechanic, son of an eye-surgeon. He checked out a used pick-up truck Jonathan is considering. He knows what’s under a hood, or what ought to be. The car mechanic is the bad guy in many he-ripped-me-off stories. A Christian mechanic is a servant of God, and thanks be to God for them.
Comment by Helen (September 22, 2007 @ 6:24 pm )
Gail,
I want to add one more thing that I don’t think is coming through in my comments. I really respect you and your opinion. I am just using your thoughts to clarify my own. I don’t feel at all argumentative rather I am just thinking out loud as I am sure you are.
Comment by Cindy (September 22, 2007 @ 7:14 pm )
Hi Cindy
These are great questions. I know your heart, Cindy, and I know you aren’t argumentative. You’re passionate and intelligent. That’s what I love about you. I love that you provide a safe place for ideas to be tossed around. I feel comfortable thinking out loud here and putting an idea out there and even be ignorant and naive.
>do you think the successful business man, say a landscaper like Lisa’s husband or a guy like Rush Limbaugh should go back and get their degree to fit in socially ?How much debt are you comfortable with your children taking on?Should people have fewer children in order to enable the children they have to go to college?I guess a question for Gail would be rather it is really necessary to go to college to study the quadrivium?we view the degree as a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. I am in whole-hearted agreement with the idea of the university, but it is a fact that idea has fallen on hard times.
Comment by Gail in OH (September 23, 2007 @ 4:59 pm )
Well, I don’t know what happened, but my post got seriously mangled! All of my comments to those questions were cut! And much more was cut.
If I get up the energy and can remember what I was saying I’ll try to post again.
Comment by Gail in OH (September 23, 2007 @ 5:03 pm )
Gail,
So sorry the comment was mangled. I tried to check to see if I worked on the code the comment would magically fix itself but I couldn’t find any code. It is one of those mystery Internet things and always at the worst times. I really wanted to hear what you were saying but I know how exhausting rewriting something lost can be.
Comment by Cindy (September 23, 2007 @ 8:33 pm )
Speaking as one of the peasants(by this I mean one who’s dh doesn’t have a degree… and has done back breaking work for many years), let me state that I wouldn’t trade it for the corporate world for anything. In the last few years Gene has switched from a blue collar job… to a beige collar job. Though his job has avoided most of the pitfalls of the “corporate world” because he works for a small service providing company. We have dear friends who are in the corporate rat race and every day is fraught with choices in which are difficult as a Christian.
We live a very simplified life, we don’t travel a lot or go to fancy conferences or on vacations. And I thank the Lord for that. We spend our time together as a family enjoying simple pleasures.
We are training our daughters to look for a man of integrity who is following Christ with his whole heart…. whether he be a doctor or ditch digger. God is no respecter of persons and showed mercy to the tax collector, prostitute and physician alike. How can I judge someone based on their career choice? What would I be teaching my children if I focused on their future spouses income. Heaven help me if I become another Mrs. Bennett!
I also agree with Cindy in regards to the debt. It is astounding to me to see the amount of debt that young adults leave college with. How stressful that must be on young married couples.
Having been on the receiving end of elitism… I can honestly say… it isn’t God honoring. None of us has any value, apart from Christ, and all of our worldly wisdom and achievements are but wood, hay, and stubble. My prayer is that I convey to my daughters that the only thing of any value is that which we do for the Lord.
Comment by Lora K. (September 23, 2007 @ 9:08 pm )
This is an excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to share it.
Warmly,
Kate
Comment by Under the Sky (September 26, 2007 @ 2:46 am )
Oh, boy, you hit my hot button here! I was thinking, AMEN!!! I just hate the fact that people doing the exact same jobs get paid differently because of some piece of paper. In fact, I know a guy who works as an engineer who never went to college. He was trained on the job and now is one of their most valuable employees. He is paid fairly well, but he is forever locked in to working for that company or taking a huge pay cut. No other company will hire him, even with 15 years of experience, because even though he would do the job MUCH better than some kid fresh out of school, he doesn’t have the degree. That sort of thing is just wrong! I guess it wouldn’t be such an issue, but the family relocated for some rather complex reasons, and now he has to commute two hours or learn to get by on half the salary.
Comment by homefire (September 26, 2007 @ 10:27 pm )
Engineering is one of the jobs that loses the most in this situation. There are many gifted engineers without degrees. In the past getting a degree wasn’t necessary for the gift individual. Now getting a degree has become required and I believe it will hurt the profession. The more institutionalized our companies become, the more they will rely on HR to produce degreed personnel rather than sniffing out gifted individuals.
This is something also illustrated by the whole midwife/Dr spectrum. The more technical a midwife is the more she loses all that made midwives better…real knowledge of the patient.
Comment by Cindy (September 27, 2007 @ 7:45 am )
“Own a successful business? Make it count by getting your degree”
That’s an odd perspective - a business can be successful, yet not count because the owner doesn’t have a degree?? What if a business owner has a degree but is a lousy businessman and his business doesn’t do well? Does his business count because he has a degree?
In our area we have billboards that say “I want to make more money” or “I want a raise” and then invite you to take courses at their college. I think they’re in poor taste. I’m old enough to remember the idealism of the 60’s and 70’s when people wanted a career that would change the world. I suppose people might have had more material motivations at heart, but they weren’t as quick to admit it.
Comment by Tim's Mom (September 29, 2007 @ 11:02 pm )
I so enjoy reading your blog.
This post reminded me…I saw several homeschool friends recently that I hadn’t been with for quite awhile. They asked about our oldest daughter, and when I smiled and said she had gotten married, their instant reaction (all of them) was: “Did she go to college?”
And I found myself fumbling my way through the answer, sounding like a mom who isn’t really pleased with the whole situation…even though I am. (”Well, um, yes, she went for one semester, and did well,” I say, leaving out the part about that math course, “but, of course, college is so absurdly expensive, and, well, they didn’t really have the courses she wanted, and, um, then she was working, and, well…” Good grief.
If our daughter chooses to ‘go back’ someday or sometime and take some courses that would help her, great. If not, great, too. College is a means to an end - very, very necessary in some situations, not so necessary in others.
Our son-in-law just completed training for his job. He’s already making a salary adequate to support them both when she gets pregnant. And I fumble through that answer, too (”Yes, he went to college, and even spent a semester in Oxford, England, but, well, no, he didn’t finish, it was really too expensive, and, well, he had to work,” like working is some terrible, terrible thing.). Weird world…
My daughter is happily married at a fairly young age (she was 20) to a Christian young man who loves her, they are involved in our church, they want children as soon as God gives them, our son-in-law can support them, our daughter is a bright, intelligent girl….and, well, no, they didn’t finish college….
(But I did. Hmmm…maybe when they ask next time, I can talk about myself instead!
Comment by Donna-Jean (September 29, 2007 @ 11:16 pm )